• I'm responding here, because Mutant Town's comments section is not the most appropriate place for this thread.

    Jedm2311 wrote:

    Mutant Town would be a great plot for new seasons of the Ninja Turtles 2012 series!

    Gilgameshkun wrote:

    Well, hindsight being 20/20. Not that 2K12 ever had the most foresight, though.

    Ms.HamatoAlexander quote:

    TMNT 2012 is over, and this is getting repetitive. This is going to be the last time I tell you that there isn't any future seasons of TMNT 2012.

    Jedm2311 wrote:

    Says you Ms.HamatoAlexander, that petition on has been getting more signatures, and I won't stop hoping, they'll have to bring the series back some day, and I think all fans agree that it's a way better series than Rise of the Ninja Turtles, and there are still many things unchecked like Fugitoid, and I would really love to see more of Alopex.

    Petitions are all well and good, but at this point I doubt it would even be cost-effective for them to resume production of that series even if they wanted to. Production was completely disbanded, and they would have to set up a completely new continuation production, trying to secure the previous talents without any guarantee they'll be available, and none of that would be even remotely practical as long as Rise remains in production as a concurrent animated series. The fact that they committed fully to a new hard reboot almost immediately after a previous series ended should tell you how thoroughly they moved on from the previous series. Your only realistic option at this point for seeing the story continued is if you write it yourself as fan fiction.

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    • They've brought this up so many times, and I have told them to stop on a few occasions.

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    • It's not fair Alopex only got one appearance, and you never showed the return of Fugitoid, and I would very much like to see more IDW characters appear in the series, and another 87 crossover.

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    • A lot of things about it weren't fair. A lot of loose ends were left dangling. But sometimes that happens with a TV series. It's not always about what's good for the quality of the show itself, but about what they can market and sell. A recurring problem that TMNT TV series have had in general, is that they are made or broken not by how people like the show itself, but by how much money Playmates Toys can make selling toys based on it, because that more than anything else can determine certain shows' profitability. And when it comes to their cartoon toy market, the peak profitable demographic is 7 years old. A show production can often try to do various things, like easter eggs, to appeal to peripheral audiences, including older viewers and longtime viewers watching since the beginning. But once the core target audience ages outside of toy market relevance, partnered companies like Playmates make less money, and thus the show also makes less money, and there's a relentless drive to keep toy sales profitable. This kind of thing is called toyetic, and it has had a controlling commercial interest in most children's cartoon production since even before I was born. This is also related to the fleeting demographic rule, which holds that the most profitable target audience cannot be expected to remember anything that happened more than two years ago, and in a case like this it's because the older audience has aged out of audience profitability and they want to target a younger audience. They often take opportunities like these to retool a series, even if it breaks continuity. And if a show has been off the air for two years, then its marketability is assumed to be nonexistent.

      Comic books has long been a very different creature from children's cartoons. It has a far more niche audience. They tend to be middle aged or older. They tend to have longer memories for plot and characters. That means richer, deeper story arcs can be developed that target audiences don't as easily forget about. But comics' profitability has always been much lower—companies like Playmates don't waste their time trying to market toys based on it. In some ways this frees up comics to be more daringly creative over longer periods of time, but also makes their production slower and their creators don't always make a lot of money on the comics themselves, which is why merchandising for the comic audience has been more humble ventures like Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles & Other Strangeness back in the Mirage era or a rare flash-in-the-pain licensed video game like Mutants in Manhattan. Cartoon production still knows that adults—whether they be comic readers or now-aged fans of earlier cartoons—may be in the audience, which is part of why they occasionally try to appeal to them in token ways. But the drive to do this seldom has much energy to it and certainly not much profit in it, especially if doing so causes Playmates to lose patience and complain.

      One of the problems the 2012 TV series had, and which became especially parent later on, was that it didn't have the same commercial potential to hook an audience of children as the 1987 TV series had once had. It seems at times like 2K12 didn't really know what it wanted to be or was allowed to be, and there were rumors about showrunners and the network at odds with each other behind the scenes. The first casualty was attempts to appeal to adult comics-readers, which became especially apparent after season 2. But even trying to appeal to aged 1987 series fans was insufficient if it failed to appeal to children, or worse, if it became considered a series inappropriate for children. Before the show's fifth season was even over, its core profitability had already taken a terminal nosedive, and the network burned it off to lesser-watched sister network NickToons, which is where first-run TV Nick series go to die when their profitability has been written off as a lost cause but they're still under contract to finish airing it.

      Rise of the TMNT was conceived from the onset to appeal first and foremost to a fresh young audience with as little baggage from existing fans as possible. This is not to say that Rise has never had those easter eggs, and the show itself can still be entertaining and clever (with some rather brilliant production decisions), but it was tailored so that older TMNT material (including the recently completed 2012 TV series) would matter as little as possible. Nick washed their hands of what came before, and clearly wants nothing more to do with it, so they committed fully to Rise and its fortunes with that prime toy market. This level of commitment and break with the past has been rather breathtaking, but not necessarily all that surprising from a profit motive.

      Where your petition is considered, even if it somehow manages to earn millions of signatures, I can guarantee you that Viacom will look at it not from how many existing TMNT fans are out there (and there have always been a lot of various stripes), but of how they can market it in a way to make the most money off of it. And its subsidiary Nickelodeon isn't a comic book company and has a different revenue model with different merchandising priorities, and what an already aged audience craves will be far less significant a consideration. Viacom at least understanded that TMNT would always still have a core adult audience of whatever limited profitability, which is why IDW has a continuing license to produce comics for the comic book market. And, for a time, IDW even produced comics based on the 2012 series, in the form of New Animated Adventures and then Amazing Adventures, the latter of which was even given the freedom to break continuity with the show itself. But these were still a tie-in product with the show, and their market relevance was never going to last longer than the show did. The truth is, old shows don't come back in anything resembling their original form. Even if there are crossovers with earlier continuities in newer shows, they are still produced with the show's current target audience front and center.

      So if the 1987 series and the 2012 series audiences are too aged now, then why don't they continue something for adults? Well...they have, in ways. The 1987 series also had Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Adventures, which was based on the 1987 continuity but written by Mirage staff, and it gradually matured with its audience until one of its spinoffs, Ninjara: Seed of Destruction, was actually adults-only. And yet TMNT Adventures marketability could not realistically outlast the show it resembled, especially when the primary reason it existed was to provide a buffer between the 1987 cartoon and the Mirage comics which wanted nothing whatsoever to do with each other. Later, during the Tales of the TMNT volume 2 era, very limited elements were borrowed from the 2003 TV series, such as Hunter Mason from Hun (2003 TV series), but since this was a Mirage-controlled production, it like the 2003 series was largely happy to treat the 1987 series as if it had never existed. While 2K12 did make more references to 1987, what will 2K12's own legacy be in comics? That, too, is extremely limited. Some IDW elements were adapted to 2K12 (like Alopex (2012 TV series)), but the reverse has almost never happened, and you can count the examples on one hand:

      TMNT cartoons don't always have a legacy handed to them, but they have to earn a large enough long term fan interest that's still there when the original viewers have grown. The 1987 series managed to do that with sheer ubiquity of exposure while it was still on the air. The 2003 series forged a different lasting legacy as a darker cartoon up there with shows like Gargoyles and Avatar: The Last Airbender. But 2K12...again, never seemed sure what it wanted to be. Something for kids who watch cartoons? Something for adults who read comics? Something for adults who once liked TMNT as kids? These audiences have always had a very different set of interests, and sometimes it meant that appealing to one audience would alienate another, and vice versa. It's actually rather rare to find a TMNT fan who likes every TMNT product in existence with no strong dislike of any of its incarnations. Whatever can be said of Rise of the TMNT, at least it's strongly apparent that it knew from the onset what it wanted to be, and has been sticking with it, even if it ultimately may prove to fail to have a lasting appeal with peripheral audiences.

      Like I said, older shows are never and can never come back with the same relevance they had when they were new, or even what relevance they had left when they last went off the air. This is true for 1987 and 2K3, and is also true for 2K12, and will be true in the future for Rise. Whatever direct continuing legacy they have in the future will necessarily fall outside of the core interests of Nickelodeon and Playmates, which will inevitably doom the petition's chances of success. I mean, someday we might see a later cartoon that borrows elements aged fans remember from 2K12, but I expect to be over 60 by then. I've had to stop caring about 2K12's evolution, because its problems started driving me crazy even before it went off the air. TMNT comics for adults have always been more my pace, as much now with IDW as it was in the past with Mirage. And who knows? Maybe someday there will be a TMNT TV series actually for adults from the onset, but it would likely have to deal with a very different set of revenue concerns without the direct involvement of Nickelodeon or Playmates or their merchandising, but still inherit and have to deal with many of the same competing and often mutually exclusive fan interests that 2K12 itself could never quite figure out how to balance.

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    • And now, to be honest, I find the economics of TMNT production to be one of the most depressing and soul-draining topics to dwell on. I said all that because the matter is clearly important to you and you're trying to reconcile why things can't continue like they did before. But stewing over such things can be like a black hole sucking what sanity and joy you have left. Sometimes it's just better to let go, and enjoy what you can however you can for as long as you can, in a healthier way. I'd prefer not to speak further on this particular matter now.

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    • A FANDOM user
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