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  • What did everyone think of the Mutant Apocalypse arc? I thought it was great and sad at some parts. Especially Leonardo and the turtles reunite after almost 50 years. I always wondered where mutagen bomb came from? A failed EPF experiment that went rogue? The Kraang returned and accidently destroyed New York? I guess we will never know. We will never know if April or Karai ended up with Donatello or Leonardo. 

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    • It doesn't make sense Renet said the turtles were legends and were heros of her timeline. Yet there are no Humans at all. So how can renet and lord simultaneos exist if the apocalyspe left the world ravaged.

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    • I thought it was horribly depressing. So nothing they did, saving the world multiple times, actually made a difference in the long run. The human race is extinct, including April, Casey, and the rest; the mutants likely will be too before too long (considering how rotten things are); the planet is irreparably ruined... And it's horribly depressing to think of them being alone and going through respective struggles for DECADES, most of their lives. 

      KaijuHero, good point. I wish we could just easily conclude that this is A possible outcome rather than THE outcome. Does anyone know what "A tale from the Beyond" means?

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    • Another flaw that my brother and I thought about was that Karai and April are both half mutants. Meaning shouldn't they somehow survive the bombs effects. Also we don't know all the mutants survived the desert environment. Since Snakeweed is a plant so he possibly died. Also we never got closure with mutagen man. It was stated by donnie that timothy would trapped in ice for either fifty years or until 2105. Also  I think Casey's American flag masks gives an idea that the turtles lived a long life since Casey didn't start wearing that mask until the city at war storyline.  So maybe the bomb dropped during the main characters thirties, expecially since Donnie said he had a cybernetic brain. That tech sounds like something that could take a couple of decades to develop. Also donbot/ metalhead 2.0 resembles briarios from Appleseed. 

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    • Easol1 wrote:
      I thought it was horribly depressing. So nothing they did, saving the world multiple times, actually made a difference in the long run.

      Isn't that life?

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    • wait is the rest of season 5 deperessing?

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    • Gracekim12:

      "Life at best is bitter sweet."
              — Kirby

      Even good TMNT stories usually have a melancholy element to them. Not that I'd call the final three seasons of the 2012 TV series good. I just mean you can't really expect TMNT stories not to be depressing. It comes with the territory.

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    • KaijuHero wrote:
      Another flaw that my brother and I thought about was that Karai and April are both half mutants. Meaning shouldn't they somehow survive the bombs effects. Also we don't know all the mutants survived the desert environment. Since Snakeweed is a plant so he possibly died. Also we never got closure with mutagen man. It was stated by donnie that timothy would trapped in ice for either fifty years or until 2105. Also  I think Casey's American flag masks gives an idea that the turtles lived a long life since Casey didn't start wearing that mask until the city at war storyline.  So maybe the bomb dropped during the main characters thirties, expecially since Donnie said he had a cybernetic brain. That tech sounds like something that could take a couple of decades to develop. Also donbot/ metalhead 2.0 resembles briarios from Appleseed. 

      But the Mutagen Bomb was "still" a bomb which probably started a fire and a massive explosion of mutagen and death. You can see in the flashbacks, buildings are collapsing and roads breaking. April was still immune to mutagen, but I think she perished by the collapsing buildings.

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    • I thought it was great self-contained story...but not a good series finale at all.  Now I see definitely why Nickelodeon aired this episode before the other ones.

      It is a purposely despressing arc, and the only way to reconcile the differences between the other episodes and this one is to treat it as an alternate universe.  As others have mentioned, even though it seems like there is a point of divergence between the episodes we've seen and this bad future, there's little evidence that it's the case. The mutagen bomb is definitely technology from The Kraang, although that doesn't mean they launched it.

      I don't think we're meant to look at the continuity that deeply, though. Instead this a Mad Max inspired universe that answers the question "What if the Turtles Fail?" and shows what could happen to these guys.  Exploring it as a side-story is refreshing, but ending the series on this note would be terrible.

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    • In my opinion, I didn't like this alternate future. I thought it was pretty creative and interesting to see what would've happened 50 years in the TMNT universe, but I don't want this to be the finale of the series. Like you said Easol1, all of their hard work of saving the world beating aliens and mutants all for nothing.

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    • I just realized that Karai is a mutant. Or something like one. Do you think she remained unaffected? Or trapped in her serpent form?

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      • unnafected from the mutagen bomb.
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    • whether she was affected or not she probably died during the apocalypes because of the lack of food and water. Same could've happened to April, Casey and all the other bad guys.

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    • Sad...

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    • Nangbaby wrote:
      I thought it was great self-contained story...but not a good series finale at all.  Now I see definitely why Nickelodeon aired this episode before the other ones.

      It is a purposely despressing arc, and the only way to reconcile the differences between the other episodes and this one is to treat it as an alternate universe.  As others have mentioned, even though it seems like there is a point of divergence between the episodes we've seen and this bad future, there's little evidence that it's the case. The mutagen bomb is definitely technology from The Kraang, although that doesn't mean they launched it.

      I don't think we're meant to look at the continuity that deeply, though. Instead this a Mad Max inspired universe that answers the question "What if the Turtles Fail?" and shows what could happen to these guys.  Exploring it as a side-story is refreshing, but ending the series on this note would be terrible.

      I'm so confused as season 5 ended? 0-0 I reached the episode with the samurai rabbit... (Yes I'm very behind)

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    • You're not really that behind. The episodes have been completed for some time, to the point where the episodes have come out on home video. However, for some reason, NIckelodeon was holding onto these episodes and haven't aired them until now. As of this writing, there are still unaired episodes, but all of them have been produced.

      Plus, in this final season, all of the episodes are mostly separate story arcs with little continuity outside of the arcs. So if you haven't seen the Mutant Apocalypse arc, it's not as if it depends on you seeing the Kavaxas arc, for instance.

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    • The S wrote:
      Easol1 wrote:
      I thought it was horribly depressing. So nothing they did, saving the world multiple times, actually made a difference in the long run.
      Isn't that life?

      This isn't life we're talking about. It's fiction. In fiction, you don't get to do pointless, ultimately irrelevant stuff and expect people to care; you need to make the heroes' actions actually matter. It's like reading a murder mystery and being told at the end, "Well, all that detective work didn't actually result in finding out who did it. That's life." It's a waste of time and investment.

      "Isn't that life?" could also be used to justify unused Chekhov's guns, tedious filler, and countless other fiction sins. This is bad writing, full stop. Also, yes, some people DO make a difference in the long run. The fact that things actually happen as a result of them shows that. 

      I wish people would stop using the "it's like real life, hopeless and pointless!" excuse for this arc.

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    • Nangbaby wrote:
      I thought it was great self-contained story...but not a good series finale at all.  Now I see definitely why Nickelodeon aired this episode before the other ones.

      It is a purposely despressing arc, and the only way to reconcile the differences between the other episodes and this one is to treat it as an alternate universe.  As others have mentioned, even though it seems like there is a point of divergence between the episodes we've seen and this bad future, there's little evidence that it's the case. The mutagen bomb is definitely technology from The Kraang, although that doesn't mean they launched it.

      I don't think we're meant to look at the continuity that deeply, though. Instead this a Mad Max inspired universe that answers the question "What if the Turtles Fail?" and shows what could happen to these guys.  Exploring it as a side-story is refreshing, but ending the series on this note would be terrible.

      Additionally, Nickelodeon has confirmed that it is non-canon with the main storyline, or a "tale of the beyond." They're the owners of the Turtles as a franchise, and an intellectual property, meaning that the canonicity is up to them. Good enough for me.

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    • Same here. I mean, it was pretty interesting (and I was curious myself) to see what would've happened, but it was pretty sad.

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    • Yeah....A mutated Razar-style Casey would have been REALLY cool to see.

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    • Like, With a skeleton head!

      A painted one! Like his mask!

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    • This was definitely something similar to the kind of stories that Eastman and Laird would've written back in their days at Mirage. That being said, whether it took place in an alternate universe or not, I don't really care. It was a very good episode bordering on great. It stayed true to the theme(s) of the franchise--at least since it first hit the TV airwaves all those years ago, as the search to find each other (no matter how they've changed or what they've been reduced to) was quite poetic and well done. I also thought Leo being the villain of these episodes was very interesting as well as Raph's reaction in the face of it. Leo's turn was very reminiscent of the Shredder as he had been without family for a long time and it got to him. And Raph, who at the beginning of this series, couldn't stand Leo so much is unwilling to shoot Leo in order to save himself. I myself am leaning on the side of it being an official episode. Not only did Ciro want it that way to put an official stamp on the series himself, but I've also seen no in-episode evidence that this is not official. Plus there's also the fact that if you count this episode unofficial, you have to count ALL the Tales unofficial. And I have trouble believing that the Kavaxas/Epilogue arc (most of all), WWC arc, LR&C episode, and the crossover arc are unofficial. Either way, I'm content with it and am looking forward to the next series.

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    • TMNTInsighter wrote:
      This was definitely something similar to the kind of stories that Eastman and Laird would've written back in their days at Mirage. That being said, whether it took place in an alternate universe or not, I don't really care. It was a very good episode bordering on great. It stayed true to the theme(s) of the franchise--at least since it first hit the TV airwaves all those years ago, as the search to find each other (no matter how they've changed or what they've been reduced to) was quite poetic and well done.

      I also thought Leo being the villain of these episodes was very interesting as well as Raph's reaction in the face of it. Leo's turn was very reminiscent of the Shredder as he had been without family for a long time and it got to him. And Raph, who at the beginning of this series, couldn't stand Leo so much is unwilling to shoot Leo in order to save himself. I myself am leaning on the side of it being an official episode. Not only did Ciro want it that way to put an official stamp on the series himself, but I've also seen no in-episode evidence that this is not official. Plus there's also the fact that if you count this episode unofficial, you have to count ALL the Tales unofficial. And I have trouble believing that the Kavaxas/Epilogue arc (most of all), WWC arc, LR&C episode, and the crossover arc are unofficial. Either way, I'm content with it and am looking forward to the next series.

      If you like it, that's cool. 

      But I do need to point out that it had a lot of in-episode flaws, dropped plot threads and continuity errors (which some fans have been bending the show into pretzels to excuse away), and being comparable to a Mirage story does not make it any more compatible a story for THIS show. It's not the kind of story that this show was ever about telling, in that it invalidates everything the characters ever did.

      Honestly, Ciro's decision/intent seemed very petty and uncaring of the fans/mythos for me. So it is just fine to me that Nickelodeon has declared it non-canon (reclassifying it as a "tale of the beyond," versus the "past and future," as they said) and not the "real" ending (as per a writer for the show, who cited Kavaxas as the real ending). If you enjoy it, that's awesome, but myself, I lean towards the people who have the authority to make such decisions about canonicity. 

      (As much as I loved it, LR&C also had huge continuity issues with the pilot episodes, in all honesty)

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    • I've always thought LR&C was very overrated for that as well. The Kraang should've not been involved in that story. It would've been a lot better if it was a more personal story.

      P.S. You don't know that Nick itself considered MA non cannon (no one's even mentioned who this 'writer' is). And I don't buy all these plot holes and what not--it's been 50 years so how do we know (and I've already commented on the mutagen bomb's page that its origins don't matter)? Like I said, you've gotta consider ALL the Tales canon or none at all.

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    • TMNTInsighter wrote:
      I've always thought LR&C was very overrated for that as well. The Kraang should've not been involved in that story. It would've been a lot better if it was a more personal story.

      P.S. You don't know that Nick itself considered MA non cannon (no one's even mentioned who this 'writer' is). And I don't buy all these plot holes and what not--it's been 50 years so how do we know (and I've already commented on the mutagen bomb's page that its origins don't matter)? Like I said, you've gotta consider ALL the Tales canon or none at all.

      No, you really don't have to, but even if you did, I'd be inclined to declare 'em non-canon just so we didn't have an ending like MA. I know you like it, but I did not, and partly because of the real-world reasons for its existence, which were hardly artistic in nature.

      And yes, we do know that Nick itself has declared the MA non-canon; responses from an official feed would not permitted if they contradicted the official line, and they definitely wouldn't be left up. All the more so if fans were actually capping and spreading them.Those responses are very much still there. Furthermore, they are aligned perfectly with other actions (rebranding as a sort of anthology series, rearranging episodes) from Nick, and official releases/articles weren't really depicting this as a solid, definitely-canon arc long before it aired ("possible" was the word used).

      And yes, the mutagen bomb is a problem, since the show has never been about unexplained things happening. It's always been the exact opposite. There are also the massive continuity errors it brings into play, such as contradicting everything Renet said, or her entire existence (which people have been trying very, very hard to justify away).

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    • I don't care what Renet said, nor should the fans! First of all, it's Renet. Who cares? Besides, shouldn't the Halloween arc have been about them becoming "legends" anyway? Then you've got "Earth's Last Stand" basically proving that nothing is written in stone in this series. Same with "Samurai Jack", one of the greatest action cartoons of all time, which ended up discarding the Guardian in its final season and was still able to pull off an effective finale. And finally, like I said, if the origins of the mutagen bomb were so important, then MA would've been about the search to reverse everything and as we know that wasn't what it was about.

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    • TMNTInsighter wrote:
      I don't care what Renet said, nor should the fans! First of all, it's Renet. Who cares? Besides, shouldn't the Halloween arc have been about them becoming "legends" anyway? Then you've got "Earth's Last Stand" basically proving that nothing is written in stone in this series. Same with "Samurai Jack", one of the greatest action cartoons of all time, which ended up discarding the Guardian in its final season and was still able to pull off an effective finale. And finally, like I said, if the origins of the mutagen bomb were so important, then MA would've been about the search to reverse everything and as we know that wasn't what it was about.

      "Who cares?" is not a very effective argument, especially when arguing that continuity hasn't been violated badly. Second, "legends" is not enough of an explanation, especially what with the "many times" part of her statement.

      As for things not being set in stone, the whole arc with them in Japan pretty much confirms that yeah, they are. Nor does Samurai Jack have anything to do with it, and even if it did, being a great action cartoon does not protect it from having flaws and inconsistencies.

      As for the mutagen bomb, its origins were not treated as important because it was a badly-written means to an end.

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    • I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree. But my assertion remains clear as it is straightforward: whether it's official (which as I said I lean towards & probably always will) or not, it's not that simple. And that's all I'm trying to say.

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    • TMNTInsighter wrote:
      I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree. But my assertion remains clear as it is straightforward: whether it's official or not, it's not that simple. And that's all I'm trying to say.

      I can definitely agree it's not simple, or people wouldn't be debating the officialness. :)

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    • I think this basically the turtles Logan/Old Man Logan storyline. Oldman Logan featured Wolverine watch as his friends are dead. Villains ruled the future. And Wolverine discovers that his long time friend and ally Hulk is now the leader of ruthless gang of mutants. We see this is an alternate timeline.

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    • KaijuHero wrote:
      I think this basically the turtles Logan/Old Man Logan storyline. Oldman Logan featured Wolverine watch as his friends are dead. Villains ruled the future. And Wolverine discovers that his long time friend and ally Hulk is now the leader of ruthless gang of mutants. We see this is an alternate timeline.

      Wasn't The Hulk also an incestuous cannibal in that one?

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    • I recently re-watched this arc and I have to say.... I truly felt as if I was watching a Mad Max fanfiction/fan video, with an attempt to stuff the TMNT in there (emphasis on "attempt").   It did not feel like a TMNT episode.  I actually felt better about the arc because it felt so disconnected from the actual series (especially after re-watching scenes from episodes set in the main canon timeline).   There is no way that this fits into the canon storyline.  For me it only works as some sort of alternate reality or perhaps a dream/vision (or as somebody jokingly suggested, maybe Raph wrote a Mad Max fanfiction starring himself!)  If somebody wants to see this as the "true" ending, that's their business.  I won't judge you or tell you that you can't.   Just don't try to make the rest of us accept it as such.

      TMNTInsighter wrote:
      I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree. But my assertion remains clear as it is straightforward: whether it's official (which as I said I lean towards & probably always will) or not, it's not that simple. And that's all I'm trying to say.

      Hmmm... actually, I would say that the massive continuity errors are pretty straightforward.  It simply does not fit into the canon storyline.  It only becomes complicated if you believe that  Ciro Nieli's "vision" should take precedence, despite the poorly constructed story (definitely below his ability and the abilities of the other writers).  If Ciro wanted his preferred ending to be official, then he should have:  1)  constructed a good story that made sense and 2) avoided massive continuity errors.  Nickelodeon did the right thing ( I can't believe I'm agreeing with Nick on something!) 

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    • For crying out loud, Nickelodeon did not air these episodes out of order b/c they disagreed with Ciro Nieli! They aired them out of order because they've been incompetent at scheduling since "Parasitica"! Also this talk about there being so many continuity errors is getting way overblown.

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    • Precisely, Nickelodeon has messed up the order of the series many times, even showing episodes online far too early. Many networks have this problem, heck did you know the Ducktales reboot is completely out of order, Cartoon Network does/did the same with Ben 10. To believe that Nickelodeon aired Tmnt out of order on purpose because they disagree with Ciro's "vision" is ridiculous.

      Look the mutant apocalypse has already been confirmed as a what if timeline, but it is production wise the series finale.

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    • TMNTInsighter wrote:
      For crying out loud, Nickelodeon did not air these episodes out of order b/c they disagreed with Ciro Nieli! They aired them out of order because they've been incompetent at scheduling since "Parasitica"! Also this talk about there being so many continuity errors is getting way overblown.

      TMNTInsighter, on the contrary, some are actually denying that any continuity errors exist, when in fact there are several massive ones. 

      As for their reasons, let's accept that none of us can know and we have different theories. 

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    • One thing I should mention while I'm at it, is that "The Tale of Tiger Claw" has one of the most obvious continuity errors in the world--that being the identity of TCs rival. So much so that I personally put an asterisk next to the episodes title. Do I pretend that the episode didn't happen though? No.

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    • TMNTInsighter wrote:
      One thing I should mention while I'm at it, is that "The Tale of Tiger Claw" has one of the most obvious continuity errors in the world--that being the identity of TCs rival. So much so that I personally put an asterisk next to the episodes title. Do I pretend that the episode didn't happen though? No.

      That's very nice for you. The massive, continuity-derailing errors are only part of the issue, honey; they're just the most obvious ones.

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    • Easol1 wrote:

      TMNTInsighter wrote:
      One thing I should mention while I'm at it, is that "The Tale of Tiger Claw" has one of the most obvious continuity errors in the world--that being the identity of TCs rival. So much so that I personally put an asterisk next to the episodes title. Do I pretend that the episode didn't happen though? No.

      That's very nice for you. The massive, continuity-derailing errors are only part of the issue, honey...

      Proposal denied!

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    • TMNTInsighter wrote:

      Easol1 wrote:


      TMNTInsighter wrote:
      One thing I should mention while I'm at it, is that "The Tale of Tiger Claw" has one of the most obvious continuity errors in the world--that being the identity of TCs rival. So much so that I personally put an asterisk next to the episodes title. Do I pretend that the episode didn't happen though? No.
      That's very nice for you. The massive, continuity-derailing errors are only part of the issue, honey...
      Proposal denied!

      Keep telling yourself that. There's quite a bit that is a problem in that arc, and quite a bit to delegitimize it in others' eyes (which has been adddressed). You're welcome to think it's canon or not, but kindly don't tell other people what THEY think and why. Especially when the whole disagreeing statement is effectively "Nuh-uh!"

      Even if it were the case, the identity of TC's rival is a bit less egregious than everything that happens to the whole world. That seems like a slightly cavernous issue. Obviousness and derailing scope are not the same thing.

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    • Give me the in-episode evidence that proves the arc was unofficial, I'm waiting!

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    • TMNTInsighter wrote:
      Give me the in-episode evidence that proves the arc was unofficial, I'm waiting!

      In-episode evidence ALONE is not required except by you; those are YOUR highly-restrictive standards for canonicity, not the rest of the world's (I can provide other similar examples of determined canonicity if you like). I'm not sure why you're not satisfied by me saying that you can enjoy the arc as whatever you like.

      And unless I'm mistaken, we've already gone over the issues that make it impossible for it to exist in the same timeline as the main series unless you headcanon in a bunch of twisting, complicated explanations or excuses to fill the massive, contradictory holes. Issues such as contradictory information/events that makes it impossible for characters (Renet, for instance), events or scenarios to co-exist in the same world. They are effectively mutually exclusive.

      That is evidence. You simply stated that you don't consider these massive contradictions to be anything important, because some other continuity error that DIDN'T derail the entire world and multiple characters (such as making characters' very existence and stated events impossible) bugged you in a different episode. There is in-series evidence, but you're not acknowledging it. 

      So I don't see any reason to repeat myself more than I already have. Have a nice day.

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    • Easol1 wrote:

      TMNTInsighter wrote:
      Give me the in-episode evidence that proves the arc was unofficial, I'm waiting!

      In-episode evidence ALONE is not required except by you; those are YOUR highly-restrictive standards for canonicity, not the rest of the world's (I can provide other similar examples of determined canonicity if you like). I'm not sure why you're not satisfied by me saying that you can enjoy the arc as whatever you like.

      And unless I'm mistaken, we've already gone over the issues that make it impossible for it to exist in the same timeline as the main series unless you headcanon in a bunch of twisting, complicated explanations or excuses to fill the massive, contradictory holes. Issues such as contradictory information/events that makes it impossible for characters (Renet, for instance), events or scenarios to co-exist in the same world. They are effectively mutually exclusive.

      So two wrongs make a right?! Give me a break!

      Easol1 wrote:

      That is evidence. You simply stated that you don't consider these massive contradictions to be anything important, because some other continuity error that DIDN'T derail the entire world and multiple characters (such as making characters' very existence and stated events impossible) bugged you in a different episode. There is in-series evidence, but you're not acknowledging it. 

      So I don't see any reason to repeat myself more than I already have. Have a nice day.

      So anything that's ever been made that has continuity errors in it never happened?! Pfffft!

      Just call things the way you see them on the screen! That's the way it's always been and the way it always should be; don't rely on the creator, some jerk writer like Auman, some page, or anything outside the episode as it plays to tell you what to think and conclude! And if you can't name me any in-episode evidence that proves this arc never happened, then you can't say it didn't happen. It's as simple as that.

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    • TMNTInsighter wrote:

      Easol1 wrote:


      TMNTInsighter wrote:
      Give me the in-episode evidence that proves the arc was unofficial, I'm waiting!
      In-episode evidence ALONE is not required except by you; those are YOUR highly-restrictive standards for canonicity, not the rest of the world's (I can provide other similar examples of determined canonicity if you like). I'm not sure why you're not satisfied by me saying that you can enjoy the arc as whatever you like.

      And unless I'm mistaken, we've already gone over the issues that make it impossible for it to exist in the same timeline as the main series unless you headcanon in a bunch of twisting, complicated explanations or excuses to fill the massive, contradictory holes. Issues such as contradictory information/events that makes it impossible for characters (Renet, for instance), events or scenarios to co-exist in the same world. They are effectively mutually exclusive.

      So two wrongs make a right?! Give me a break!


      Easol1 wrote:


      That is evidence. You simply stated that you don't consider these massive contradictions to be anything important, because some other continuity error that DIDN'T derail the entire world and multiple characters (such as making characters' very existence and stated events impossible) bugged you in a different episode. There is in-series evidence, but you're not acknowledging it. 

      So I don't see any reason to repeat myself more than I already have. Have a nice day.

      So anything that's ever been made that has continuity errors in it never happened?! Pfffft!

      Just call things the way you see them on the screen! That's the way it's always been and the way it always should be; don't rely on the creator, some jerk writer like Auman, some page, or anything outside the episode as it plays to tell you what to think and conclude! And if you can't name me any in-episode evidence that proves this arc never happened, then you can't say it didn't happen. It's as simple as that.

      No, it's not the way it has always been and will ever be. Canonicity is determined by whoever has intellectual property rights to a work; just look at Disney's determination of canon when they bought Star Wars, getting rid of an epic boatload of comics and book spinoffs from the canon, and determining what it would be from then on. People may not like it, but that was how it was. You may insist that the works alone are what you should pay attention to, but that's simply not how the world works or has ever worked.

      Peter Laird spoke similarly when people asked him about Mirage canon, saying that canonical inclusion was the determination of the new owners, not him. And he co-created the Turtles in the first place, so that kind of statement is good enough for me!

      Furthermore, it is not a "two wrongs make a right" situation to point out when a story establishes something, and a later part contradicts it on a massive, massive scale. That is called bad writing, and it's called violating preestablished canon. Canon was established IN THE SERIES when other episodes established things, and MA turned against them so completely that it literally cannot take place in the same world.

      I did mention evidence that this is an AU/non-canon story. You simply don't want to acknowledge it. It's as simple as that.

      And like I said, it's not the issue of continuity errors, which are inevitable. It's the fact that the errors are so massive and overarching that they literally should erase entire chunks of the preestablished story, including chunks from the same season (Renet). And these huge, huge issues all stem from exactly one place: the Mutant Apocalypse arc.

      You want me to judge it based only on what I saw on the screen? Okay. Watching it, having seen other episodes, it literally only made sense to me as an AU story because it so completely contradicted what had been established. THAT was what I saw.

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    • TMNTInsighter, you can of these episodes however you want, whether you pretend they exist or not. But just so you know, Think of how much of a better ending "End Times" was. The Turtles got to fight the Shredder one last time, they saved the city, send a demodragon back to hell, see Splinter one last time and the Foot Clan even made a truce with the Turltes. I say after all they've done, killing the Kraang, stopping the Triceratons from invading Earth and defeating the Foot Clan, mission accomplish...

      Now with this Mutant Apocalypse ending, it's like all their hard work was for nothing. In the end, everyone got mutated, and they all live in a hellish desert. Sure, they did find the oasis in the end, but think of how bored their gonna get in there for the next 100 years or so.

      I'm not saying the MA was completely horrible, but it was just depressing. And I think "End Times" should've been the true ending for the series. In fact, I considered ALL season 5 episodes (except for the Kavaxas arc of course) to be non-canon.

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    • Fishface405 wrote:
      TMNTInsighter, you can of these episodes however you want, whether you pretend they exist or not. But just so you know, Think of how much of a better ending "End Times" was. The Turtles got to fight the Shredder one last time, they saved the city, send a demodragon back to hell, see Splinter one last time and the Foot Clan even made a truce with the Turltes. I say after all they've done, killing the Kraang, stopping the Triceratons from invading Earth and defeating the Foot Clan, mission accomplish...

      Now with this Mutant Apocalypse ending, it's like all their hard work was for nothing. In the end, everyone got mutated, and they all live in a hellish desert. Sure, they did find the oasis in the end, but think of how bored their gonna get in there for the next 100 years or so.

      I'm not saying the MA was completely horrible, but it was just depressing. And I think "End Times" should've been the true ending for the series. In fact, I considered ALL season 5 episodes (except for the Kavaxas arc of course) to be non-canon.

      I basically totally agree with you. Not to mention that they would have spent most of their lives apart and miserable, suffering from varying degrees of mental illness. And like you said, it effectively makes everything else they did meaningless, which is a bad look for any work of fiction.

      Aside from the other issues with MA, such as official canonicity and the continuity issues, End Times was the right combination of sad and satisfying, and it actually felt connected to the things that had happened before without contradicting anything we were told/shown about what was ahead of them or making their struggles feel pointless. 

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    • "Give me the in-episode evidence that proves the arc was unofficial, I'm waiting!"

      Sure;  the fact that an apocalypse happened and the world became a wasteland (when we know that the turtles are destined to become heroes of legend...and history books, which would not exist in a post-apocalyptic wasteland).   Oh, and the mutagen bomb somehow effectively destroying the world (and the moon, for some unknown reason) despite the fact that the Kraang were defeated.   Glad I could help ;)

      Let me know if you are having difficulty with anything else.  I will be glad to provide further assistance :)

      I'm trying to decide whether this is an alternate/universe reality vs Raph's dream vs Raph's self-insert Mad Max fanfic.  With the plot holes, I'm starting to favor the latter two.

      Fishface405 and Easol1:  Good points, both of you.

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    • I don't make that distinction. I go by what was on the screen and if it was bad it's bad and if it's good then it's good. Just because something has errors in it (again the errors in this episode are way overblown) or is sad doesn't mean it never happened. You think that the people who hated the finales of Lost and Dexter, two of the worst finales out there said "Oh I don't like it so it never existed" said that? No! They simply booed and moved on. That's being fair. And the TMNT fans who are acting like Easol1 are not being fair.

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    • TMNTInsighter wrote:
      I don't make that distinction. I go by what was on the screen and if it was bad it's bad and if it's good then it's good. Just because something has errors in it (again the errors in this episode are way overblown) or is sad doesn't mean it never happened. You think that the people who hated the finales of Lost and Dexter, two of the worst finales out there said "Oh I don't like it so it never existed" said that? No! They simply booed and moved on. That's being fair. And the TMNT fans who are acting like Easol1 are not being fair.

      It's quite fair. Not everyone has the same distinctions of canon, as evidenced by your unwillingness to take anything except the immediate episodes and your interpretations of it as canon. Just because you don't make that distinction doesn't mean it isn't there to be made, or that nobody else should make it because you think it isn't "fair" to classify something as non-canon/AU.

      Me? I go by official viewpoints by the people who have the authority to determine canon, namely the ones who own an intellectual property and determine what is to be done with it. That is quite fair, and recognized both legally and artistically (see Star Wars comparison). "Word of God" is a widely-accepted thing for a reason, and you PERSONALLY not making that distinction doesn't change that for the rest of the world.

      No, the errors are not overblown. Like I said, we were presented with two scenarios that were mutually exclusive, and the preexisting canon was violated to the point where entire characters exist for no reason. That is inexcusible, writingwise. Just because it doesn't bother you doesn't mean the errors aren't massive and impossible to reconcile except by classifying it as an AU (which Nick did).

      And comparisons to Dexter and Lost are irrelevant, because the people who owned those intellectual properties never said that they weren't canon. Nickelodeon did. There's more to it than just going, "I hate it," and just because you don't like WoG doesn't mean it doesn't have authority. 

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    • For crying out loud, once again Nickeloden never said it was unoffocial! The Kavaxas arc, because it was brought up, was never the last episode of the series. Never has been, never will be! Even if I thought it was good (which I unfortunately do not), what I want doesn't matter. In this instance all I want is the truth and the truth is that it's clearly not the last episode. Just because you think it's unfair how the creators of this show made MA, doesn't mean it's fair for you to dismiss MA as never happening.

      BTW, have you two ever stopped to consider that these sources have just been telling you want to hear all along instead of just being honest? THAT is why I can't listen to them when I've got the episode itself spelling it out to me that what happened happened! I especially can't listen to Brandon. Even though he wrote Part 1 of MA, this series isn't his creation, it's not his vision, he wants to stay in with the fan base so him saying what everyone's throwing around and wanting to be true has to be considered as an out for him so he can avoid himself getting in trouble with the fans. Plus he's a liar. When I pointed out on his Instagram account that it looks like they made a mistake regarding TCs rival in Tale of Tiger Claw as opposed to what he said in his debut episode, he lied by asking me how do I know TC wasn't lying back then--which obviously wasn't the case. Before I could reply he blocked me. Also you have to consider that these pages also just want to tell you what you want to hear so you'll like them and view their pages more even though they also can't provide you any evidence that what you saw didn't happen. THAT is why you can't listen to them and that is why I go by what's on the screen and pretty much always will.

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    • TMNTInsighter wrote:
      For crying out loud, once again Nickeloden never said it was unoffocial! The Kavaxas arc, because it was brought up, was never the last episode of the series. Never has been, never will be! Even if I thought it was good (which I unfortunately do not), what I want doesn't matter. In this instance all I want is the truth and the truth is that it's clearly not the last episode. Just because you think it's unfair how the creators of this show made MA, doesn't mean it's fair for you to dismiss MA as never happening.

      BTW, have you two ever stopped to consider that these sources have just been telling you want to hear all along instead of just being honest? THAT is why I can't listen to them when I've got the episode itself spelling it out to me that what happened happened! I especially can't listen to Brandon. Even though he wrote Part 1 of MA, this series isn't his creation, it's not his vision, he wants to stay in with the fan base so him saying what everyone's throwing around and wanting to be true has to be considered as an out for him so he can avoid himself getting in trouble with the fans. Plus he's a liar. When I pointed out on his Instagram account that it looks like they made a mistake regarding TCs rival in Tale of Tiger Claw as opposed to what he said in his debut episode, he lied by asking me how do I know TC wasn't lying back then--which obviously wasn't the case. Before I could reply he blocked me. Also you have to consider that these pages also just want to tell you what you want to hear so you'll like them and view their pages more even though they also can't provide you any evidence that what you saw didn't happen. THAT is why you can't listen to them and that is why I go by what's on the screen and pretty much always will.

      "These sources" are official mouthpieces from the network, honey, or do you think they let the official Twitter account for the ENTIRE franchise be run by anyone who wants to do it? They did indeed say it, and in fact went out of their way to do so - they could have been silent, but were not; they don't talk much directly to the fans. And those line up with earlier statements about the MA arc, such as it being a "possible" future or "this reality". 

      As for "these pages" or Brandon Auman, I have no idea what you're talking about, but it seems slightly paranoid to think that anyone with authority who denies your viewpoints on canon is merely lying to pander to the fans. (It also seems rather biased to presume that, especially based on an unsatisfactory answer about a continuity error that is quite minor compared to MA's)

      And no, I never considered that, because there's no reason for them to pander to a fanbase for a show that is practically over. It makes no sense for Nickelodeon to even allow MA to be canon, considering it is their franchise, their property, their potential use of the series in future (since two of the three TMNT series so far have had callbacks to prior incarnations).

      It's also not possible for Nickelodeon to be dishonest about canonicity because, as I said, they get to determine canonicity for the entire franchise in all media. They make the decisions about whether it is or not. It's like saying God is being dishonest about whether the Earth is round.

      I don't particularly care whether you think it's "fair" or not for me to point out the bleedin' obvious, because "fairness" changes nothing about what actually is, which is that the MA arc makes no sense with preestablished canon and has been stated not to be canon by a mouthpiece of the actual network. Nor do I care that you disregard all WoG, because that remains YOUR PERSONAL standard and not those of the rest of the world. I don't have to adhere to YOUR PERSONAL standard, and neither does anyone else. I have standards that are based on something tangible.

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    • Trigger009
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    • TMNTInsighter wrote:
      I don't make that distinction. I go by what was on the screen and if it was bad it's bad and if it's good then it's good. Just because something has errors in it (again the errors in this episode are way overblown) or is sad doesn't mean it never happened. You think that the people who hated the finales of Lost and Dexter, two of the worst finales out there said "Oh I don't like it so it never existed" said that? No! They simply booed and moved on. That's being fair. And the TMNT fans who are acting like Easol1 are not being fair.

      It doesn't just have "some errors"; it has massive continuity errors.  It contradicts what Renet has told the turtles about the future.  In the episode "Turtles in Time" she tells the turtles that she is from the future (seriously, she says "I come from the future";  the 25th century is specifically mentioned at one point ), and that they become known as heroes who have saved the world "many times".  This is not a world that becomes a post-apocalyptic wasteland.    And this isn't Renet mixing the turtles up with some other set of turtles...Savanti Romero and Lord Simultaneous recognize them, too.   These. Specific.  Turtles.  THAT is one reason why this arc only works as some form of an AU (an alternate reality vs dream/vision vs Raph's self-insert fanfic).

      I have never watched Lost or Dexter, so I can't comment on those finales.   Did the companies that own them say they weren't canon?  Like Nick has done for Mutant Apocalypse?  Just curious.

      There is nothing wrong with the way Easol1 or any of the rest of us are acting.  We are simply choosing to think for ourselves and politely (and very patiently) explaining why the arc does not fit into the canon timeline; and a number of fans (in one forum in particular) are throwing temper tantrums in response to that.  It's getting quite ridiculous.  I'm starting to suspect that, deep down, people realize we have a point and are simply misdirecting their anger at us. 

      Once again.....if you like the arc, that's your business.  But, you don't get to decide how the rest of us feel or how we view the arc.  And you don't get to tell us to ignore massive contradictions that prevent the arc from fitting into the canon timeline.

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    • Asfaloth12 wrote:
      TMNTInsighter wrote:
      I don't make that distinction. I go by what was on the screen and if it was bad it's bad and if it's good then it's good. Just because something has errors in it (again the errors in this episode are way overblown) or is sad doesn't mean it never happened. You think that the people who hated the finales of Lost and Dexter, two of the worst finales out there said "Oh I don't like it so it never existed" said that? No! They simply booed and moved on. That's being fair. And the TMNT fans who are acting like Easol1 are not being fair.
      It doesn't just have "some errors"; it has massive continuity errors.  It contradicts what Renet has told the turtles about the future.  In the episode "Turtles in Time" she tells the turtles that she is from the future (seriously, she says "I come from the future";  the 25th century is specifically mentioned at one point ), and that they become known as heroes who have saved the world "many times".  This is not a world that becomes a post-apocalyptic wasteland.    And this isn't Renet mixing the turtles up with some other set of turtles...Savanti Romero and Lord Simultaneous recognize them, too.   These. Specific.  Turtles.  THAT is one reason why this arc only works as some form of an AU (an alternate reality vs dream/vision vs Raph's self-insert fanfic).

      I have never watched Lost or Dexter, so I can't comment on those finales.   Did the companies that own them say they weren't canon?  Like Nick has done for Mutant Apocalypse?  Just curious.

      There is nothing wrong with the way Easol1 or any of the rest of us are acting.  We are simply choosing to think for ourselves and politely (and very patiently) explaining why the arc does not fit into the canon timeline; and a number of fans (in one forum in particular) are throwing temper tantrums in response to that.  It's getting quite ridiculous.  I'm starting to suspect that, deep down, people realize we have a point and are simply misdirecting their anger at us. 

      Once again.....if you like the arc, that's your business.  But, you don't get to decide how the rest of us feel or how we view the arc.  And you don't get to tell us to ignore massive contradictions that prevent the arc from fitting into the canon timeline.

      I agree, especially on your last point: I didn't like this arc, but I also agree that this could have been a great story-arc, if it had been like any other episode and not like the final. Anyway, I hope to get a confirmation... some day.

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    • Angel Bridge, there is technically a confirmation. Nickeldeon has confirmed that the "Mutant Apocalypse" arc is indeed

      NON-CANON!!!

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    • Fishface405 wrote:
      Angel Bridge, there is technically a confirmation. Nickeldeon has confirmed that the "Mutant Apocalypse" arc is indeed

      NON-CANON!!!

      And highlighted on the Nick site, where MA does not have an episode number.

      Wish we could get that across to the countless pitiful edgelords at the Technodrome forums who talk about "the kree-ay-tors!"

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    • Wasn't that episode based off of one of those old role-play games by Mirage?

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    • More o less,but no exactly

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    • ""I agree, especially on your last point: I didn't like this arc, but I also agree that this could have been a great story-arc, if it had been like any other episode and not like the final. Anyway, I hope to get a confirmation... some day."

      Angel Bridge,  I think the arc would have been much more enjoyable if certain folks had not tried to shove it down our throat as the "true" ending.  I still prefer SAINW, but this arc is OK as some form of an alternate reality.   As for confirmation, it depends on who you want it from.   If it's Ciro Nieli....no.  He wanted it to be the "true" ending, despite the massive continuity errors, substandard writing...and for very dubious reasons.  The episode is inherently non-canon, no matter what he or certain fans may say.   Nick, fortunately, overruled him.  If you haven't already looked at their Twitter feed, here you go.  :  https://twitter.com/Lit_SwiftGhost/status/912311986486218759

      There are also other screencaps of evidence up on Tumblr :)  As Fishface405 has said, Nick has indeed confirmed that it is non-canon. 

      "And highlighted on the Nick site, where MA does not have an episode number.

      Ooh, I hadn't seen that (the Nick site does not always behave for me, so I stopped going there a long time ago).  Good to know :)

      Wish we could get that across to the countless pitiful edgelords at the Technodrome forums who talk about "the kree-ay-tors!"

      You would make better use of your time slamming your head against a brick wall.  Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.  Though it can be amusing at times, especially when I am in need of an ego boost :)

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    • Angel Bridge,  I think the arc would have been much more enjoyable if certain folks had not tried to shove it down our throat as the "true" ending.  I still prefer SAINW, but this arc is OK as some form of an alternate reality.   As for confirmation, it depends on who you want it from.   If it's Ciro Nieli....no.  He wanted it to be the "true" ending, despite the massive continuity errors, substandard writing...and for very dubious reasons.  The episode is inherently non-canon, no matter what he or certain fans may say.   Nick, fortunately, overruled him.  If you haven't already looked at their Twitter feed, here you go.  :  https://twitter.com/Lit_SwiftGhost/status/912311986486218759

      There are also other screencaps of evidence up on Tumblr :)  As Fishface405 has said, Nick has indeed confirmed that it is non-canon. 

      I just wish more people recognized that, to be honest. I'm amazed by how many still care what Nieli thinks, after he openly tried to torch the series for the reasons he did (just so other people wouldn't touch "his" toys) without regard for the fans or the work itself. Like, doesn't that action bother you? Are you really going to act like he saved your puppy from drowning?

      And many others just sort of accept it despite the inconsistencies. It's depressing?

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    • Asfaloth12 : 

      Fishface405 :

      Easol1 :

      I couldn't agree more, my bro said the same 'bout It could be OK as some form of an alternate reality but not as a final and I definitely agree with him. I love SAINW, I even take It as a perfect end for me... but, this? No, thanks. I'm a little late in this, but you guys are saying everything I could have said... Thank you. :)

      (Thank you all!!!)

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    • I just wish more people recognized that, to be honest. I'm amazed by how many still care what Nieli thinks, after he openly tried to torch the series for the reasons he did (just so other people wouldn't touch "his" toys) without regard for the fans or the work itself. Like, doesn't that action bother you? Are you really going to act like he saved your puppy from drowning?

      It's amazing.   It's almost like blind worship; scary in a way.  It's disturbing to see how many people lack critical thinking skills, and indeed seem incapable of thinking for themselves.  Don't get me wrong.  I appreciate what Ciro did for the vast majority of this series.  This is one of my favorite TMNT incarnations (competing with the 2003 series and the 90s live action movie).   But, I am not going to blindly salivate over everything he does.  Dropping a turd, polishing it up, and attempting to pass it off as canon does not make it canon or even a good story.   Mutant Apocalypse had beautiful animation and excellent voice acting (wasted in my opinion), but the story falls apart due to the massive continuity errors (and to be honest, the story is not that great to begin with;  a few good moments aren't remotely enough to salvage it).  

      And many others just sort of accept it despite the inconsistencies. It's depressing?

      It's depressing in a way.  But, really, this whole situation has been very educational and fantastic practice in thinking for oneself and continuing to speak up even when everybody else is telling me to shut up and accept something that does not make sense. I no longer care if it annoys people .  I will not be silent, and I will continue to speak up.  In this era, that is a very important lesson indeed.  [In fact, if I have time for a study break this weekend, I think I should go bash my head against the wall at a certain forum a little more ;) ]

      AngelBridge,  You're welcome.  Continue to think for yourself.  And don't let anybody tell you otherwise :)

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    • Wow! That was the most incredible speech of encouragement I've seen.

      Thank you. :)

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    • "A polished turd"... That to me is exactly how I'd describe the MA arc.

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    • Fishface405 wrote: "A polished turd"... That to me is exactly how I'd describe the MA arc.

      Ease up Fishface II. Not only is the arc underrated, but just because it really did happen doesn’t mean it’s all doom and gloom, nor does it mean it has to be taken so seriously. If hair on turtles (just like they did with the Transformers movies even though I don’t like those) wasn’t your first clue, then the campiness of the villains, the final SH:TNG episode, the Mad Max tone, the Mirage vibe (although Donnie being the next Chappie is more Image), etc. should also be.

      The family theme, the search for each other and for salvation despite the loss of seemingly everything, Leo mirroring the Shredder, etc. also contribute to MA’s underrated factor. In this way, I don’t have to start a revolt (which is what this whole thing really is, let’s be honest!) and then resort to playing pretend with the series. :p

      And cheer up Easol, although the lack of in episode evidence still matters, the origins of the mutagen bomb still don’t. :p :p

      Seriously though, if there’s anything really worth moaning and groaning about, it’s Season 5 in particular. Mind you, I’m still not blaming the creators for making these final episodes (and never will). I can however blame them for the season in general: bad start with the Kavaxas/Epilogue arc, WWC was undone by a horrendous second half, LR&C is overrated, and (despite how good The Frankenstein Experiment was) the Halloween episodes quite frankly should’ve never been made! These guys had 20 episodes (although I’d definitely keep the Usagi episodes) to wrap up storylines that should’ve been resolved, and aside from giving the Newtralizer a final fate, they chose to ignore it! Now that’s a bad job!

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    • Yeah, second season began to be a little weird, third was just bland, fourth... bad ideas and fifth? It left me speechless. But of course, there are episodes (a bit) good thought. I mean, I like Usagi arc and Tales of the Past as well.

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    • TMNTInsighter wrote:

      Fishface405 wrote: "A polished turd"... That to me is exactly how I'd describe the MA arc.

      Ease up Fishface II. Not only is the arc underrated, but just because it really did happen doesn’t mean it’s all doom and gloom, nor does it mean it has to be taken so seriously. If hair on turtles (just like they did with the Transformers movies even though I don’t like those) wasn’t your first clue, then the campiness of the villains, the final SH:TNG episode, the Mad Max tone, the Mirage vibe (although Donnie being the next Chappie is more Image), etc. should also be.

      The family theme, the search for each other and for salvation despite the loss of seemingly everything, Leo mirroring the Shredder, etc. also contribute to MA’s underrated factor. In this way, I don’t have to start a revolt (which is what this whole thing really is, let’s be honest!) and then resort to playing pretend with the series. :p

      And cheer up Easol, although the lack of in episode evidence still matters, the origins of the mutagen bomb still don’t. :p :p

      Seriously though, if there’s anything really worth moaning and groaning about, it’s Season 5 in particular. Mind you, I’m still not blaming the creators for making these final episodes (and never will). I can however blame them for the season in general: bad start with the Kavaxas/Epilogue arc, WWC was undone by a horrendous second half, LR&C is overrated, and (despite how good The Frankenstein Experiment was) the Halloween episodes quite frankly should’ve never been made! These guys had 20 episodes (although I’d definitely keep the Usagi episodes) to wrap up storylines that should’ve been resolved, and aside from giving the Newtralizer a final fate, they chose to ignore it! Now that’s a bad job!

      Your condescension, obsession with the mutagen bomb (which STILL required an explanation to be good and even semi-consistent writing, no matter how often you say that it doesn't) and ignoring of anything that doesn't jive with your personal interpretation is noted and ignored. It still ain't canon by Word of God, no matter how many times you scream to the heavens that it is. Talk about playing pretend!

      And seriously, you consider it a "revolt" to simply take the final authority's (Nickeleodeon) words for it? That's a special kind of logic right there.

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    • Angel Bridge wrote: Yeah, second season began to be a little weird, third was just bland, fourth... bad ideas and fifth? It left me speechless. But of course, there are episodes (a bit) good thought. I mean, I like Usagi arc and Tales of the Past as well.

      I feel the same way, at least from the third season onwards. Halfway through the Northampton arc, I really did begin to question the plan for the show. “Revenge of the Triceratons” though is the point where I felt it was downhill from there.

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    • AngelBridge,  Thanks :D

      "A polished turd"... That to me is exactly how I'd describe the MA arc.

      Indeed.

      Ease up Fishface II. Not only is the arc underrated,

      • Insert hysterical laughter*  ....Are you serious?  I've seen a disturbing number of people fawning over it, just because it's "dark".  And those who are criticizing it have very good reason to do so.  It was extraordinarily lazy writing.

      but just because it really did happen

      No, it contradicts canon too badly to fit into the canon timeline.  Could work as some form of an alternate reality.  Personally, I like the idea that somebody jokingly mentioned on another site:  that Raph wrote a self-insert Mad Max fanfic

      nor does it mean it has to be taken so seriously.

      Then, you and Ciro should have no problem with fans (and Nickelodeon) logically treating it as non-canon.  A disturbing number of fans tend to have temper tantrums when we do so. 

      the family theme, the search for each other and for salvation despite the loss of seemingly everything, Leo mirroring the Shredder, etc. also contribute to MA’s underrated factor. 

      There wasn't much of a "search for each other".  Leo did not remember who he was, let alone his family, so he wasn't looking for his brothers.  Mikey wasn't searching for the others because he believed they were dead.  Raph and Donnie did not search for Mikey until Mira came along because...they believed their brothers were dead.  

      Re:  the "family theme".  If you're going to make a canon TMNT finale, you should have all of the turtles in it.  Having one of the turtles show up only at the end doesn't count (and even Mikey was absent for the first part). Also, what about Karai and April?  Even Casey?  They became part of the Turtles' family.  The girls did not even get a mention.  A broken tessen and a motorcyle don't cut it.  Pretty unfortunate implications there...ignoring the strong female characters.

      the origins of the mutagen bomb still don’t

      For an alternate reality, not so much.  Still a little lazy, though.   For a canon series finale, yeah, it would have mattered. In fact, it would have been essential.   Which is why I'm glad it's not canon :)

      Seriously though, if there’s anything really worth moaning and groaning about, it’s Season 5 in particular

      To each their own . As an adult, I refuse to throw a temper tantrum when somebody dislikes something that I like ;)

      Season 5 is probably my least favorite season (a lot of that is likely due to Splinter's absence), but  I actually  enjoyed  the other arcs,  especially Lone Rat and Cubs, as well as the Kavaxas arc.  I just view them as cool side stories. The real canon story wrapped up with Requiem/Owari (though Kavaxas works nicely as an epilogue).It was appropriate that this was the last season; I really missed Splinter and the show isn't the same without him.    Seriously, Mutant Apocalypse was easily the weakest arc, and frankly a waste of the animators' and voice actors' talent.   Time that could have been used to resolve any plot lines left hanging.

      In this way, I don’t have to start a revolt (which is what this whole thing really is, let’s be honest!) and then resort to playing pretend with the series. :p

      Thinking for myself is a "revolt"? ......Wow.  And noticing massive plot holes (more like a plot abyss) isn't "playing pretend".  It simply means that I don't suffer from craniorectal syndrome, and so am able to notice when things don't add up.  "Playing pretend" is some of the ludicrous things certain fans are coming up with to try to (unsuccessfully) force the arc to fit canon... and failing spectacularly.

      Also, Ciro Nieli is not God.  He may have wanted this to be the "true ending", for very dubious reasons.   But, that ultimately  doesn't matter.   He can attempt to end the series however he wants.  BUT....he has absolutely no control over how we, the fans, interpret it.  His work is not immune to criticism.  If we notice massive continuity errors and logically treat it as non-canon, then he  can't do a darn thing about it :D  

      He also doesn't have any control over what Nickelodeon does with it (as Easol1 has mentioned).  They are the owners, like it or not, and they are, amazingly, doing the right thing by making it non-canon.

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    • Asfaloth12 wrote:
      AngelBridge,  Thanks :D

      "A polished turd"... That to me is exactly how I'd describe the MA arc.

      Indeed.

      Ease up Fishface II. Not only is the arc underrated,

      • Insert hysterical laughter*  ....Are you serious?  I've seen a disturbing number of people fawning over it, just because it's "dark".  And those who are criticizing it have very good reason to do so.  It was extraordinarily lazy writing.

      but just because it really did happen

      No, it contradicts canon too badly to fit into the canon timeline.  Could work as some form of an alternate reality.  Personally, I like the idea that somebody jokingly mentioned on another site:  that Raph wrote a self-insert Mad Max fanfic

      nor does it mean it has to be taken so seriously.

      Then, you and Ciro should have no problem with fans (and Nickelodeon) logically treating it as non-canon.  A disturbing number of fans tend to have temper tantrums when we do so. 

      the family theme, the search for each other and for salvation despite the loss of seemingly everything, Leo mirroring the Shredder, etc. also contribute to MA’s underrated factor. 

      There wasn't much of a "search for each other".  Leo did not remember who he was, let alone his family, so he wasn't looking for his brothers.  Mikey wasn't searching for the others because he believed they were dead.  Raph and Donnie did not search for Mikey until Mira came along because...they believed their brothers were dead.  

      Re:  the "family theme".  If you're going to make a canon TMNT finale, you should have all of the turtles in it.  Having one of the turtles show up only at the end doesn't count (and even Mikey was absent for the first part). Also, what about Karai and April?  Even Casey?  They became part of the Turtles' family.  The girls did not even get a mention.  A broken tessen and a motorcyle don't cut it.  Pretty unfortunate implications there...ignoring the strong female characters.

      the origins of the mutagen bomb still don’t

      For an alternate reality, not so much.  Still a little lazy, though.   For a canon series finale, yeah, it would have mattered. In fact, it would have been essential.   Which is why I'm glad it's not canon :)

      Seriously though, if there’s anything really worth moaning and groaning about, it’s Season 5 in particular

      To each their own . As an adult, I refuse to throw a temper tantrum when somebody dislikes something that I like ;)

      Season 5 is probably my least favorite season (a lot of that is likely due to Splinter's absence), but  I actually  enjoyed  the other arcs,  especially Lone Rat and Cubs, as well as the Kavaxas arc.  I just view them as cool side stories. The real canon story wrapped up with Requiem/Owari (though Kavaxas works nicely as an epilogue).It was appropriate that this was the last season; I really missed Splinter and the show isn't the same without him.    Seriously, Mutant Apocalypse was easily the weakest arc, and frankly a waste of the animators' and voice actors' talent.   Time that could have been used to resolve any plot lines left hanging.

      In this way, I don’t have to start a revolt (which is what this whole thing really is, let’s be honest!) and then resort to playing pretend with the series. :p

      Thinking for myself is a "revolt"? ......Wow.  And noticing massive plot holes (more like a plot abyss) isn't "playing pretend".  It simply means that I don't suffer from craniorectal syndrome, and so am able to notice when things don't add up.  "Playing pretend" is some of the ludicrous things certain fans are coming up with to try to (unsuccessfully) force the arc to fit canon... and failing spectacularly.

      Also, Ciro Nieli is not God.  He may have wanted this to be the "true ending", for very dubious reasons.   But, that ultimately  doesn't matter.   He can attempt to end the series however he wants.  BUT....he has absolutely no control over how we, the fans, interpret it.  His work is not immune to criticism.  If we notice massive continuity errors and logically treat it as non-canon, then he  can't do a darn thing about it :D  

      He also doesn't have any control over what Nickelodeon does with it (as Easol1 has mentioned).  They are the owners, like it or not, and they are, amazingly, doing the right thing by making it non-canon.

      Nickelodeon seems to be taking the "alternate reality" stance, judging by their phraseology. Sort of an Elseworlds kind of thing, perhaps. Which I am totally fine with, because it permits more wiggle room in how things preceding the events had unfolded rather than demanding that you ignore huge chunks of continuity. 

      And the way the season overall is presented is pretty much in line with that one writer's take on it: a bunch of disconnected stories that don't seem overly connected to canon. I wonder if that was how the season was presented thematically to the non-lead writers.

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    • While we’re on this topic of studio vs creator(s), if I was ever going to listen to someone it would never be a studio! I mean, why would I? You think I would listen to 20th Century Fox after their interference and ultimate screw up with Alien 3 rather than David Fincher—one of the best directors and filmmakers in the entire business?! Nuh-uh! I’d listen to Josh Trank over them as well. Same thing with Columbia after their interference (and of course subsequent screw up) with both Spider-Man 3 AND The Amazing Spider-Man 2!! New Line Cinema destroyed any chance of success for The Golden Compass while also pretty much destroying Chris Weitz’s career. The list goes on!

      These guys aren’t filmmakers, story tellers, artists, etc. They’re businessmen! There’s no way I’d listen to them! I’ve had my disagreements with Nieli throughout the run of the show, but I’d still listen to him over any studio he’d work for-remember, he did get screwed out of a final season for the Hyperforce which even I’m still not happy about.

      That being said, whatever any studio head, show runner, filmmaker, or artist says is not a sentence handed down by a judge, it’s not the word of God Himself, it’s just production notes. I mean, I don’t need to listen to any of them! What you see (and hear) on screen has the final say, and that’s what viewer opinions are usually based on. Whether it’d be a documentary (ex. Chaos on the Bridge) or something on the internet, while it may be fun to get an inside scoop on the making of something you either like or something that’s controversial, it shouldn’t mess with your opinions or how you come to them. And I ultimately don’t let it.

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    • TMNTInsighter wrote:
      While we’re on this topic of studio vs creator(s), if I was ever going to listen to someone it would never be a studio! I mean, why would I? You think I would listen to 20th Century Fox after their interference and ultimate screw up with Alien 3 rather than David Fincher—one of the best directors and filmmakers in the entire business?! Nuh-uh! I’d listen to Josh Trank over them as well. Same thing with Columbia after their interference (and of course subsequent screw up) with both Spider-Man 3 AND The Amazing Spider-Man 2!! New Line Cinema destroyed any chance of success for The Golden Compass while also pretty much destroying Chris Weitz’s career. The list goes on!

      These guys aren’t filmmakers, story tellers, artists, etc. They’re businessmen! There’s no way I’d listen to them! I’ve had my disagreements with Nieli throughout the run of the show, but I’d still listen to him over any studio he’d work for-remember, he did get screwed out of a final season for the Hyperforce which even I’m still not happy about.

      That being said, whatever any studio head, show runner, filmmaker, or artist says is not a sentence handed down by a judge, it’s not the word of God Himself, it’s just production notes. I mean, I don’t need to listen to any of them! What you see (and hear) on screen has the final say, and that’s what viewer opinions are usually based on. Whether it’d be a documentary (ex. Chaos on the Bridge) or something on the internet, while it may be fun to get an inside scoop on the making of something you either like or something that’s controversial, it shouldn’t mess with your opinions or how you come to them. And I ultimately don’t let it.

      Whether you would listen to them or not is not relevant; what is relevant is who has the authority to be listened to. In this particular scenario the people who made the series are not "creators"; they were hired for a preexisting franchise, playing in someone else's sandbox with someone else's intellectual property, and subject to their judgement. Whether you like it or not, whether I like it or not, the people who own the franchise make the decisions and get to determine what is.

      As I noted before, showrunners (which is what Nieli was, not a "creator") are not artistic "creators," and they are subject to the judgement of whoever DOES own the franchise. Peter Laird even stated that he was no longer able to determine the canonicity of comics that HE oversaw, because the franchise was no longer his but Nick's. And he actually co-created the whole franchise. 

      And in case you're wondering, at least some of the storytellers and artists who worked on the production don't agree with you on MA either.

      And your stance on whether Word of God counts for anything is YOUR OPINION ALONE, not the universal and accepted stance. Most people do not share your viewpoint. You can go right ahead and ignore what you want and accept what you want, but kindly do not get upset because other people call an AU an AU.

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    • Aaaaannnd here we go again.

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    • Fishface405 wrote:
      Aaaaannnd here we go again.

      Alas.

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    • Easol1,  I agree with pretty much everything you said.  Not much to add. 

      TMNTInsighter,  You're still ignoring the massive canon contradictions.  We don't even need Nick to tell us the story is non-canon.  The story collapses into the massive plot abyss and falls screaming to its inevitable doom.  Can't believe Nickelodeon actually did something right (I'm still a little bitter over the atrocious airing schedule for Season 4 and the ridiculous hiatuses). 

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    • At this point, I'd watch ANY episode of Season 4 right about now compared to all the Season 5 episodes we have now. (Except for the Kavaxas arc. I like that :)

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    • Yes, it is the most recommendable.

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    • I'm kinda sad right now, because a close friend of mine (who suffers from very severe depression, and very small things can set her off) has completely sworn off TMNT because of how upset the arc made her. It got even worse when some fans insisted that this was the 100% canon ending, with zero wiggle room, no matter what anyone in authority says, and that she was "childish" for wanting anything but a sad end.

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    • Fishface405,  I rather enjoyed Season 4 while watching it on DVD.  The lack of God-awful hiatuses certainly helps,especially with the space arc.  I liked most of the Season 5 arcs (Lone Rat and Kavaxas were my favorites).

      Easol1,  Oh boy.  I'm really sorry to hear about that. Does she have a good support system in place?  This is why it is so incredibly annoying when certain...individuals...disparage happy endings.  You never know what somebody is dealing with in their real life, and whether they may use fantasy as an escape from that.   Look,  I'm not even  opposed to bittersweet (like Owari or End Times) or even sad endings....but  they need to make sense within the story and not make everything that came before it meaningless.  If I want that, I'll pick up a newspaper or a history book.

      Out of curiousity, does she know Nick's stance on the canonicity?  Also, what are her thoughts on the whole canon contradiction with Renet's description of the future?   Did that make her feel better at all?  

      Interesting that they call her "childish", when many of those same people brainlessly fawn over sad/downer endings without putting any critical thought into it (ie, whether it makes sense within the story or not).   Also interesting when they lack the maturity to handle viewpoints that differ from their own. 

      Sorry if I sound crabby folks.  Little anxious about my big board exam tomorrow**

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    • Asfaloth12 wrote:
      Easol1,  Oh boy.  I'm really sorry to hear about that. Does she have a good support system in place?  This is why it is so incredibly annoying when certain...individuals...disparage happy endings.  You never know what somebody is dealing with in their real life, and whether they may use fantasy as an escape from that.   Look,  I'm not even  opposed to bittersweet (like Owari or End Times) or even sad endings....but  they need to make sense within the story and not make everything that came before it meaningless.  If I want that, I'll pick up a newspaper or a history book.

      Out of curiousity, does she know Nick's stance on the canonicity?  Also, what are her thoughts on the whole canon contradiction with Renet's description of the future?   Did that make her feel better at all?  

      Interesting that they call her "childish", when many of those same people brainlessly fawn over sad/downer endings without putting any critical thought into it (ie, whether it makes sense within the story or not).   Also interesting when they lack the maturity to handle viewpoints that differ from their own. 

      Sorry if I sound crabby folks.  Little anxious about my big board exam tomorrow**

      She has a good support system, but she's been struggling a lot in the last year and this really hit her hard. It's why I don't glamorize stories for being dark, depressing, meaningless or hopeless; there are people whose entire lives are swamped in those things with no way out, and pretending that it's more "adult" or sophisticated just makes a mockery of the horrible reality. Wbaf's more, stories with that sort of thing in them can actually make people who suffer from depression worse.

      She does know Nick's stance, and the massive contradictions re: Renet. But the constant treatment of it as hard-and-fast canonical by so many, including series writers/producers, has really worn her out, and she's not sure what to think anymore.

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    • Easol1 wrote:
      She has a good support system, but she's been struggling a lot in the last year and this really hit her hard. It's why I don't glamorize stories for being dark, depressing, meaningless or hopeless; there are people whose entire lives are swamped in those things with no way out, and pretending that it's more "adult" or sophisticated just makes a mockery of the horrible reality. Wbaf's more, stories with that sort of thing in them can actually make people who suffer from depression worse.

      She does know Nick's stance, and the massive contradictions re: Renet. But the constant treatment of it as hard-and-fast canonical by so many, including series writers/producers, has really worn her out, and she's not sure what to think anymore.

      Well,  glad to hear she has support.   I don't know her, but please let her know that I wish her the best anyway :)

      You are right about stories that are dark or depressing.  Might as well read a newspaper or history book.  It would certainly be more worthwhile than a piss-poor attempt at a "realistic" ending that makes no sense within the context of the story.   It's disturbing how some people seem to take some sadistic glee in dark/downer endings stories.     Apparently, they don't think there is enough suffering in real life?   And their reactions to people bothered by those stories are a little creepy, frankly.   Do they think it's "childish" to have empathy?  Do they think it's funny that people suffer from depression and may be adversely affected by things like that?

      The easy answer would be to tell her to think for herself.  To ask herself whether this arc makes sense in the overall context of the series.   But I realize that sometimes may be easier said than done. I'm sure that certain toxic parts of the fandom aren't helping.    Personally, I refuse (ABSOLUTELY refuse) to let one extraordinarily poorly written arc ruin my enjoyment of something that has accompanied me through my post-graduate medical training (some of which was during a time when my husband and I were forced to live apart).   Not to mention this is part of  a franchise I have enjoyed since I was a little girl.

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    • Asfaloth12 wrote:

      Well,  glad to hear she has support.   I don't know her, but please let her know that I wish her the best anyway :)

      You are right about stories that are dark or depressing.  Might as well read a newspaper or history book.  It would certainly be more worthwhile than a piss-poor attempt at a "realistic" ending that makes no sense within the context of the story.   It's disturbing how some people seem to take some sadistic glee in dark/downer endings stories.     Apparently, they don't think there is enough suffering in real life?   And their reactions to people bothered by those stories are a little creepy, frankly.   Do they think it's "childish" to have empathy?  Do they think it's funny that people suffer from depression and may be adversely affected by things like that?

      The easy answer would be to tell her to think for herself.  To ask herself whether this arc makes sense in the overall context of the series.   But I realize that sometimes may be easier said than done. I'm sure that certain toxic parts of the fandom aren't helping.    Personally, I refuse (ABSOLUTELY refuse) to let one extraordinarily poorly written arc ruin my enjoyment of something that has accompanied me through my post-graduate medical training (some of which was during a time when my husband and I were forced to live apart).   Not to mention this is part of  a franchise I have enjoyed since I was a little girl.

      I told her about it, and she's very grateful. 

      Usually the excuse is that MA is "Mirage-style" as if everyone who likes TMNT likes the Mirage comic books (I don't, neither does she) or that that it's "childish" to want good things for characters you have come to care about. It's very edgelord. And no, I don't think it occurs to them that when people are tortured by feelings of hopelessness and misery, then contemplating half a century of it for characters they love is very painful. 

      She is finding it difficult to make her own stance on the canonicity of it, just because there are so many people with differing opinions, including the producers versus Nickelodeon. It's hard for her to know what to think, and the uncertainty is screwing with her head even more. I'm going to ask her to revisit it at some future date and try to decide for herself when her mind has settled down and her wounds have healed a little, and see if it's worth it then.

      In the meantime, I'm having her watch the 2003 series, so she can bond with characters who definitely, absolutely have a good end that nobody can deny.

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    • So true, Nick has trashed this series so much, they've pretty much gave up on writing and just throw in randomk ideas when they've should've just ended at "End Times". Now, we've got at least 12 unforgivable excuses for anything but a load of crap in this season, and unfortunantly, that's how it's gonna finish.

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    • Easol1,

      Ah, yes.  "Mirage style".   Does that mean sexist, substandard storytelling riddled with embarrassingly, insultingly obvious plot holes...no, plot craters?    No thank you.  They can take their "Mirage style" and stick it where the sun doesn't shine.  I prefer good, quality storytelling that makes sense, doesn't insult the viewers, and doesn't treat women as objects to be disposed of.

      I'm still sorry about your friend,  and it truly saddens me to have potentially lost a fellow member of the fandom for this (overall) awesome show  :(  It makes one wonder how many others may leave the fandom because of this;  hopefully they don't completely swear of all incarnations of the TMNT for good.  Frankly, it is starting to really tick me off.  How many people may have used this show as an escape, and then have it hurt them instead?   Indeed, it may not be a bad idea for her to take a break from 2012 TMNT,  until she feels that she is at a point where she can assess the situation for herself, ignore the whining from the edgelords ( you have to be in a good, stable place mentally in order to do that), and decide for herself whether this makes any sense at all in the canon timeline.  We know it doesn't make sense at all in canon and are able to roll our eyes at the edgelords, but depression/anxiety are terrible conditions that don't always allow for clear thinking (sadly, I am speaking from past personal experience here).   It would be a shame for her to lose something she enjoyed just because some dude had a temper tantrum (that wasn't very nice of me, I know, but I find it difficult to care).   And then she could just avoid re-watching the polished turd if she ever gives the series a try again (hope she does!).  Owari/Kavaxas arc makes a nice ending point, or even the Crossover/Lone Rat (since they're on the same DVD). 

      Once again, I personally refuse to let some dude ruin something I enjoy, just because he wanted to throw a hissy fit.

      Glad to hear she is willing to give the 2003 series a try!  Personally, it is one of my favorite incarnations ( competing with the 2012 series and the 1990 movie), at least the first 3 seasons (had issues with Karai's arc in the later seasons, as well as the resolution of Leo's PTSD arc).  Love Mike Sinterniklaas as Leonardo (he might be very favorite Leo, actually).  In fact,   I was in the middle of re-watching...until the polished turd aired.  Hope she enjoys it :)

      Best of luck to her :)  Sorry if I sound crabby.  Just had an exhausting week following a big test, and my patience is running thin.

      Fishface405,

      I'm lucky in that I enjoyed most of the rest of Season 5.   Even the weakest of the non-Mutant Apocalypse arcs look like masterpieces next to that polished turd. That said, End Times does make a good ending to the main CANON storyline. 

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    • Thank you Asfaloth12, I'm glad that you agree with me. And I'm not trying to sound like I hated this series from the very beiginning becasue I actually love this series.

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    • Not that I necessarily think this was a good story, as I generally don't like the entire second half of the 2012 TV series. And sometimes there can certainly be something to enjoy in TMNT not made by Mirage. But Mirage TMNT is the quintessential TMNT, and everything else is an alteration of it. They may draw varying levels of inspiration from Mirage (or eschew it altogether), but the more they diverge from Mirage formula, the less they feel like "the" TMNT.

      This story wasn't quite Mirage-style anyway. Mirage has always been more complex than the simplistic notion that it's all gritty grimdark all the time—rather, it's a style about living in an impermanent world, in both good times and bad, through a gradually-maturing adult lens and all the complex emotions and personal baggage that come with it. If anything, the Mutant Apocalypse is far more like After the Bomb, Road Hogs and other dystopian future TMNT role-playing settings by Palladium Books, which were technically very early mid-1980s licensed TMNT works made outside Mirage. And I generally like a lot of Palladium TMNT stuff, but there are certainly areas where it departs significantly from Mirage style. Its future Earth scenarios are similar to Mirage in involving environmental and infrastructural cataclysm that decimates the world and complicates the lives of survivors, but Mirage appears to treat this as a temporary setback with the world gradually recovering and rebuilding its civilization within a century, as shown in future stories like Silent Night and Swan Song that include functional urban settings that rejuvenated after a difficult time. It was Palladium's approach that envisioned Earth's future being much bleaker with the near-extinction of humans in a world that comes almost completely controlled by competing mutant fiefdoms—a setting sharing far more in common with First of the North Star or Mad Max or Samurai Jack than with Mirage TMNT future stories.

      Palladium's ultra-grim future mutant dystopia setting was ideal for a sci-fi tabletop role playing game setting where players are expected to create a growing roster of exotic mutant wasteland wanderers. Some of the 2012 TV series characters, such as Tiger Claw, originated as past RPG characters created by some of the showrunners, and some episodes like Mazes & Mutants and In Dreams were love letters to some elements of that scene, and the Mutant Apocalypse is a love letter to other elements of it. A completely unrecognizable world full of decayed ruins and roving mutant gangs is inherently an exotic world with much to explore, which makes for more wondrous tabletop role-playing scenarios. Mirage's future stories may have less exotic settings, but can still be engaging on a character-driven level. Palladium makes the exotic world the centerpiece and very little about it is mundane. Mirage's centerpiece is more the ongoing personal and familial struggle to be whoever you are, wherever you are, regardless of whether it's exotic or mundane.

      When it comes to the question of "What in the 2012 TV series is Mirage-style?", I'd be more inclined to suggest stuff like Karai's Vendetta or Slash and Destroy. They are very personal character-building struggles, whether it's April at one minute lounging in a restaurant and then desperately trying just to survive the next few minutes alive and accept that her life as she knew it had permanently changed, or Raphael's familiar life unexpectedly turned upside down and him trying to fix a crisis he unknowingly created without quite being able to do so and then having to live with the consequences.

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    • Asfaloth12 wrote:
      Easol1,

      Ah, yes.  "Mirage style".   Does that mean sexist, substandard storytelling riddled with embarrassingly, insultingly obvious plot holes...no, plot craters?    No thank you.  They can take their "Mirage style" and stick it where the sun doesn't shine.  I prefer good, quality storytelling that makes sense, doesn't insult the viewers, and doesn't treat women as objects to be disposed of.

      I'm still sorry about your friend,  and it truly saddens me to have potentially lost a fellow member of the fandom for this (overall) awesome show  :(  It makes one wonder how many others may leave the fandom because of this;  hopefully they don't completely swear of all incarnations of the TMNT for good.  Frankly, it is starting to really tick me off.  How many people may have used this show as an escape, and then have it hurt them instead?   Indeed, it may not be a bad idea for her to take a break from 2012 TMNT,  until she feels that she is at a point where she can assess the situation for herself, ignore the whining from the edgelords ( you have to be in a good, stable place mentally in order to do that), and decide for herself whether this makes any sense at all in the canon timeline.  We know it doesn't make sense at all in canon and are able to roll our eyes at the edgelords, but depression/anxiety are terrible conditions that don't always allow for clear thinking (sadly, I am speaking from past personal experience here).   It would be a shame for her to lose something she enjoyed just because some dude had a temper tantrum (that wasn't very nice of me, I know, but I find it difficult to care).   And then she could just avoid re-watching the polished turd if she ever gives the series a try again (hope she does!).  Owari/Kavaxas arc makes a nice ending point, or even the Crossover/Lone Rat (since they're on the same DVD). 

      Once again, I personally refuse to let some dude ruin something I enjoy, just because he wanted to throw a hissy fit.

      Glad to hear she is willing to give the 2003 series a try!  Personally, it is one of my favorite incarnations ( competing with the 2012 series and the 1990 movie), at least the first 3 seasons (had issues with Karai's arc in the later seasons, as well as the resolution of Leo's PTSD arc).  Love Mike Sinterniklaas as Leonardo (he might be very favorite Leo, actually).  In fact,   I was in the middle of re-watching...until the polished turd aired.  Hope she enjoys it :)

      Sorry that this might be a little abrupt, but Wiki ate my first, longer reply. Mirage-style to these fans seems to mean a required sad ending that hasn't earned itself (edgelord stuff, y'know) and no requirement to have important events actually explained, just have them sorta pop out of nowhere. I'm not a Mirage fan (like I said, I tried it and didn't like it, partly because it presses my anxiety buttons), but that really is quite undeservingly insulting to Mirage. Especially using them as an elitist way to excuse writing flaws. Talk about nerve!

      Temper tantrum seems appropriate. He did all this for selfish, petty reasons by his own admission, not caring about the fans, and deserves criticism for it.

      My friend is doing a little better, but I suspect she'll need to get her head together before she can consider watching the show again. She's one of those people who feels too much and too deeply, so getting emotionally attached to anything is a huge risk for her. She actually experienced psychological trauma from this sort of thing in the past, so it may take a long time to put herself back together.

      We're watching our way through Season 1 of '03, and while it took her a little while to get used to this incarnation of the Turtles (she's mostly used to '87 and '12) she's really liking them. I agree that Sinterniklaas makes a great Leonardo, and I like Sam Regal as Donatello too. Really good performances, very good stories.

      Out of curiosity, have you seen the press release from Nick on the final DVD? 

      http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/news/Teenage-Mutant-Ninja-Turtles-Tales-V3-Final-Chapters/23776

      Not even ambiguous. "Another dimension" and "special." 

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    • Fishface405,  Oh don't worry I didn't  get that impression at all :)  Honestly, it wouldn't have mattered even if that were the case;  you have every right to your opinion.   Here's the funny thing.  I almost stopped watching after Season 1 when I heard that Sternin and Ventimilia (along with most of the Season 1 writers) were leaving.  I'm still unclear as to the reason why.  Glad I stuck with it, though.   Also glad to see I'm not alone in liking Owari or End Times as the true ending :)

      Gilgameshkun,  I haven't read very much Mirage, so thanks for offering your perspective :)

      Easol1,    "Sad ending that hasn't earned itself"   That's actually a  great description right there.  Honestly (and please feel free to disagree with me here),  I could potentially have been OK with one or more of the Turtles dying in the end.  IF it was done well (ie, like Splinter's death),  IF it made sense within the story,  and IF it was a meaningful sacrifice (to save the world, their loved ones, etc) that doesn't come out of nowhere.  Instead of "rocks fall, everyone dies" (or in this case, a Mutagen bomb). 

      Glad to hear your friend is doing better.  Yeah, she should definitely take some time away from TMNT 2012, at least a few months.  Maybe even a year or more.  Until she's at a point where she feels that she can look at the show without letting the whining from the edgelords affect her, and decide for herself whether it makes sense.   It definitely is a risk to get attached to fictional characters (speaking as somebody who is way too attached to these adorable little turtles).  The first time I watched this arc?  I actually felt physically ill.  So glad that it turned out to be non-canon ;)  But, one thing that has made if easier for me, personally?   All the flaws in the arc. It's quite laughable, and I've recently found a lot of enjoyment in just making fun of it (I am a terrible, terrible person, I know).  But, things become a lot less disturbing if you're able to laugh at them ;)

      Re:  the 2003 series.  It's quite a difference isn't it?   I personally had the reverse experience, like many fans.  I was so used to that incarnation of the turtles and their voice actors, that it took some time to get used to the Nick actors and characterizations.  Especially Donatello and Leonardo.  Agree with you on Sam Reigel.  He and Mike Sinterniklaas have nice voices, don't they?  Season 1 was easily my favorite season (especially Shredder Strikes Back).    It seemed unlikely that I would like the Nick series half as much as the 2003 series.  Boy, was I wrong :)  Enjoy your 2003 watch;  I'm on Season 2 myself.  

       Re:  the final DVD  Yes, I did see that and I loved it.   I bet Ciro is loving it too :D   ( I need to stop being so petty.....no, I don't).   Has your friend seen that description?  That said, I have no intention of buying the DVD.  The polished turd (excuse me, MA) will not be allowed to defile my home.   I already got When Worlds Collide off Amazon video, and will likely do the same for the Monster and Usagi arcs. 

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    • Gilgamesh-kun needs to write thematic essays on this stuff for the Internet. He/she clearly puts far, far more thought into it than the people who just bleat that sad endings = depth MMKAY.

      Still on Season 2; she was a little surprised by how hard and fast it took a turn into hard sci-fi with aliens and starships and stuff, but is still enjoying it. We're on the Secret Origins arc.

      Has your friend seen that description?  

      Yes, and it did help some, though I doubt it will change the minds of anyone who reads it. What got me was that the references to "another dimension" and "special" don't read like errors made by someone who isn't familiar with the material, but specific mentions.

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    • Easol1 wrote:
      Gilgamesh-kun needs to write thematic essays on this stuff for the Internet. He/she clearly puts far, far more thought into it than the morons who just bleat that sad endings = depth MMKAY.

      Dial it back a bit there. People aren't "morons" because you disagree with how a cartoon they made progressed. Be a bit more civilized.

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    • The S wrote:
      Easol1 wrote:
      Gilgamesh-kun needs to write thematic essays on this stuff for the Internet. He/she clearly puts far, far more thought into it than the morons who just bleat that sad endings = depth MMKAY.
      Dial it back a bit there. People aren't "morons" because you disagree with how a cartoon they made progressed. Be a bit more civilized.

      Sorry. I was referring to some specific people on another site, nobody here. I'll edit the post to be more polite, though as always the progression is a subject up for debate.

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    • Easol1:

      I respect that. You tried it. You aren't really a fan. Too many anxiety buttons pressed. Understandable. I... Heh, I almost said, "TMNT isn't for everyone." XD Like I implied, I tend to view all TMNT through a Mirage frame of reference. But one thing I love about it is that, even with sadness, there's still always room to enjoy life to some degree. Remember, "life at best is bitter sweet." There's often a silver lining even in a difficult life, even if it doesn't readily present itself. And at 37 years old, I can relate to this. Life can be very difficult, full of some very painful stuff that tries to rip you down. But no matter how bad it gets, life...goes on, you know? You internalize your experiences, you learn from them, you grow, you find ways (albeit imperfect) of becoming stronger than that which tried to tear you down. Your happy ending isn't just delivered to you on a silver platter—you have to earn it on your own. Even then, nothing's guaranteed, and bad stuff can happen that no one really deserved. And still, you press on, and find an ending that, even if not a fairy tale ending, is one you can ultimately continue living your life with.

      Mirage is absolutely full of such endings, and it's reflected well in the endings of Mirage stories like the three-part "What Goes Around... ...Comes Around!"-"Silent Partner"-"True Stories" arc, and the 13-part "City at War", and "Darkness Weaves", and "Swan Song". The 2012 TV series partially adapted the "What Goes Around... ...Comes Around!"-"Silent Partner"-"True Stories" arc in the form of "The Invasion" and the following North Hampton farm arc, but in some ways departs significantly from it in becoming more like "The Real World: North Hampton" where teenagers live in a rural frathouse without adult supervision. The Mirage farm arc was a more sober-toned time of pain on one hand, but also of great healing on the other—not just of physically broken characters like Leonardo (though I rather liked how the 2012 series portrayed Leo's long painful physical therapy over several episodes), but of the entire family of seven whose unity up to that point had been forged in hardship. "True Stories" takes place over several months' time span, from the Christmas April's apartment building burned down, through their escape to the Jones Farm, the numb weeks that followed, the rest of winter, into spring, into summer, into...what had actually been transforming into a new lease on life, which had been stabilizing around April, the turtles, Splinter and Casey even as April had been keeping diary entries of the experience. Separately, both April and Splinter reach the some conclusion: "Life is good... And life goes on."

      If you're a young reader, it may just seem like a bunch of pain and drama and it doesn't make sense how characters could lose their home and all their possessions and their sense of security in life (all on Christmas Day, no less) and then still eventually come to that conclusion. But it's...sort of true, you know? Not just that specific scenario, but any situation that completely permanently changes your life. It never gets perfect, but it can still get better—your happy ending just doesn't always necessarily fall in your lap pre-assembled without any effort on your part. Personal growth and adaptation to change are essential, mandatory parts of the overall experience, and actually make a story more engaging in the process.

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    • Gilgameshkun, thank you for being so understanding, because I know you absolutely lurve the Mirage series. For me, it's like Disney's "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs" - it simply isn't for me for various reasons, one of them being the anxiety buttons you mentioned (not for SWATSD), but I do definitely acknowledge its cultural importance and its objective high quality.

      And I really like what you have to say here about life. Thank you again.

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    • You're welcome.

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    • Easol1, Can't say I blame you.  I willl also try to refrain from insulting people.  I make no such promises regarding the arc itself.

      Did you also see the screenshots of the menus.  If accurate, it showed Mutant Apocalypse as the first episodes/arc on Disc 1.  I think the Usagi arc is the final arc of episodes on Disc 2. Just thought that was cool :)


      Gilgameshkun,

      Thank you for sharing your thoughts.  One of the best things about Season 3 was how they showed Leo's recovery.  Not perfectly medically accurate, but that didn't really matter.  I really appreciated how they tried to show that recovery from a trauma like that takes time.

      But it's...sort of true, you know? Not just that specific scenario, but any situation that completely permanently changes your life. It never gets perfect, but it can still get better—your happy ending just doesn't always necessarily fall in your lap pre-assembled without any effort on your part. Personal growth and adaptation to change are essential, mandatory parts of the overall experience, and actually make a story more engaging in the process.

      This is  is exactly why Owari worked so well so well for me, and why Mutant Apocalypse was an utter failure.   As for the rest, maybe I'll give the Mirage comics a try after all.  I've only really read IDW so far, and have been ejoyin them.

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    • Asfaloth12, no, I have not seen the menu photos yet. Not sure where they are, since the DVD info on the wiki is all text.

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    • Easol1, take this with a grain of salt, but here's where I found it. Like I said, I don't know how accurate this is. http://nickalive.blogspot.com/2017/11/nickelodeon-to-release-tales-of-teenage.html

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    • Well, it looks plausible. If not real, someone went to a lotta trouble to mock it up.

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    • Easol1: I feel sorry that you got the DVDs. At a maximum resolution of 640x480 (640x360 in 12:7 aspect ratio), they're half the size the online streaming versions were (mostly 1280x720). And considering how many fine-print easter eggs they used to cram into scenes in the show, it seems a disservice to only release the series on inferior DVD which makes many of those easter eggs too tiny to read. But it is my understanding that Nickelodeon almost never releases TV series on Blu Ray.

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    • Gilgameshkun, no I don't have the DVDs yet.

      I do have a question, though: do they include any extra material on them, or just the episodes?

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    • I don't know—I don't have them either, and I wasn't going to get them, because like I said, DVDs have a maximum resolution of 640x480—they are not high-definition video. If only Nick would sell Blu Ray versions, I might buy the first two seasons.

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    • Nangbaby wrote:

      . The mutagen bomb is definitely technology from The Kraang, although that doesn't mean they launched it.

      Triceratons, perhaps? They could have easily stolen and modified some Kraang technology. 

      I agree that, like "Same As It Never Was", this could be only a possible future. The secret to preventing the apocolypse must lie in one of Raph's lost memories, likely something that, at the time, seemed insignificant.

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    • The Iconoclast wrote:

      Nangbaby wrote:

      . The mutagen bomb is definitely technology from The Kraang, although that doesn't mean they launched it.

      Triceratons, perhaps? They could have easily stolen and modified some Kraang technology. 

      I agree that, like "Same As It Never Was", this could be only a possible future. The secret to preventing the apocolypse must lie in one of Raph's lost memories, likely something that, at the time, seemed insignificant.

      Yeah, except that they made it very clear from the start in SAINW, that it was just that. Even in other TMNT episodes such as “Bad Day”, “Shredderville” from the original series, etc.; they always, even if it took until the end of the episode, revealed that what the protagonists were experiencing wasn’t real. In “Mutant Apocalypse”, the creators never ended up doing anything like that and if an AU was their intention (which I still of course severely doubt), they should’ve done a better job of making it apparent.

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    • Gilgameshkun wrote:
      I don't know—I don't have them either, and I wasn't going to get them, because like I said, DVDs have a maximum resolution of 640x480—they are not high-definition video. If only Nick would sell Blu Ray versions, I might buy the first two seasons.

      Ah, I see. High-def seems like it would be important in a CGI show, for many. So they're high def if you get them from something like Amazon streaming?

      In my particular case, I don't think high def would make a difference. My eyes are not very good, so I can't really tell the difference between DVD and blu-ray quality anyway.

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    • The Iconoclast wrote:

      Triceratons, perhaps? They could have easily stolen and modified some Kraang technology. 

      I agree that, like "Same As It Never Was", this could be only a possible future. The secret to preventing the apocolypse must lie in one of Raph's lost memories, likely something that, at the time, seemed insignificant.

      That does not seem to have been the intention when making it, but it's certainly been confirmed since as a possible/alternate future. 

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    • The Iconoclast wrote:
      Nangbaby wrote:
      . The mutagen bomb is definitely technology from The Kraang, although that doesn't mean they launched it.
      Triceratons, perhaps? They could have easily stolen and modified some Kraang technology. 

      I agree that, like "Same As It Never Was", this could be only a possible future. The secret to preventing the apocolypse must lie in one of Raph's lost memories, likely something that, at the time, seemed insignificant.


      That's up to us to decide. What went wrong in this alternate dimension?  

      However, as Easol1 said,  The showrunners did originally intend this to be the true ending, despite the major continuity issues that prevent it from fitting into the canon timeline and for very dubious reasons. Thankfully, Nick overruled them :)

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    • Asfaloth12 wrote:
      The Iconoclast wrote:
      Nangbaby wrote:
      . The mutagen bomb is definitely technology from The Kraang, although that doesn't mean they launched it.
      Triceratons, perhaps? They could have easily stolen and modified some Kraang technology. 

      I agree that, like "Same As It Never Was", this could be only a possible future. The secret to preventing the apocolypse must lie in one of Raph's lost memories, likely something that, at the time, seemed insignificant.


      That's up to us to decide. What went wrong in this alternate dimension?  

      However, as Easol1 said,  The showrunners did originally intend this to be the true ending, despite the major continuity issues that prevent it from fitting into the canon timeline and for very dubious reasons. Thankfully, Nick overruled them :)

      They should've stood by their artists. They had guts to air this arc as well as some others like "Annihilation: Earth", the "Requiem" and "Owari" episodes, etc. but not standing by your artists in the press isn't something that a good entertainment company does. Show some guts Nick! There still isn't enough to sell us on the idea that this isn't the series finale or if it's non-cannon (ex. the setting and plot of the arc, the fact that Nickelodeon has sucked at scheduling since "Parasitica"--everyone even caught that WWC happened after the Halloween arc despite the fact it aired first, it's the last episode in production order, the fact that none of the other arcs are considered non-cannon--the Kavaxas arc being the most notable, Ciro Nieli's rebuffs--and if Gargoyles showrunner Greg Weisman can claim what's canon and not then certainly Ciro can, the fact that there's no evidence within the episode to indicate that it was an AU--unlike SAINW and other episodes that let you know at some point that it was, the fact that it aired, the Chompy flashbacks straight out of S4, etc.) and if that was either the intent of Nickelodeon or the creators, they didn't do a very good job at all. 

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    • A big difference here.  Requiem, Owari and Annihilation:Earth (except for the very last scene) were good episodes that didn't badly contradict canon.   Nick promoted the Mutant Apocalypse;  they just made another arc the official finale and have been treating this arc as non-canon and referring to it as "another dimension".  Nick officially confirmed on their Twitter that the Crossover is indeed the series finale, and that arc was the last one to premiere on TV.  MA was merely the last arc produced;  nothing more. Why on Earth should Nick "stand by" a polished turd like MA?

      Ciro intended for MA to be the finale, for dubious reasons and despite serious continuity problems.   He can try to claim it's "canon" all he wants, but he has no control over how fans view or interpret it.  Logically, the arc doesn't fit into canon. Nobody has been able to explain away the contradictions regarding Renet's description of the true future.  There have been desperate attempts, but none have been successful.

      As for Chompy, etc....an alternate dimension can have similar events with key differences.  See SAINW as an example.  They still had all 4 turtles, April, Casey, Karai, Shredder, etc.   So, clearly that reality had similarities with the main timeline, but key differences.

      In the end, it's a cartoon, for goodness' sake.  It's strange how desperate fans are to force others to accept it as "canon".  Which is precisely why I have chosen to speak up about it.  People have every right to treat it as non-canon and/or an alternate reality/timeline, whether certain fans like it or not :)

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    • It doesn't matter whether you think they should have deferred to their "artists" (an executive producer/showrunner is not an artist, sweetie). The cold hard fact is, they didn't defer. They chose to consider it an AU, and they have the authority to do so. "Should haves" do not matter; what matters is what the persons in authority said.

      And why should they stand by it? The entire arc was made as a middle finger to them and a torching of this iteration of the franchise. I wouldn't make it canon either, on principle. As for the scheduling, have you not noticed that they went out of their way to make it NOT the last episode on the DVD pack? In fact, it's the first. That points to more than just a scheduling screwup, as does the Twitter confirmation that the production order doesn't matter.

      Nor does it need to have evidence within the material to be considered AU. Do you also consider Mirage's "guest" issues to be canon because none of them explicitly say, "This is non-canon" and I'm sure the makers of them considered them canon at the time? Because logically, you really should.

      And the difference between Ciro Nieli and the maker of Gargoyles is quite simple: one made something new and previously nonexistent of his own imagination, while another was HIRED to produce a new iteration of a preexisting franchise property. When you are brought on to work on a franchise, you don't get to treat it as being your own exclusive work, nor are you the ultimate authority. 

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    • Look, if you want to see it as canon, and you like it... that's fine. Go right ahead. But please accept that it's entirely valid for others to regard it as non-canon, and that there's enough official support for the idea for it to be regarded that way legitimately. 

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    • Asfaloth12 wrote:
      ...

      ...It's strange how desperate fans are to force others to accept it as "canon".  Which is precisely why I have chosen to speak up about it.  People have every right to treat it as non-canon and/or an alternate reality/timeline, whether certain fans like it or not :)

      And as someone who doesn't buy these AU/non-canon claims (Nickelodeon's no different than a big fat liar as far as I'm concerned) yet still sees the positives inherent in this underrated story, I have just as much right to rebuff those claims and speak up about the flaws on the other side of the argument as well as to express my opinions as far as the overall quality of the episode goes. So I guess I'll be seeing you later.

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    • TMNTInsighter,

      Nobody said you don't have the right to speak up. Nobody is saying you can't like the arc. Nobody is saying that you can't view it as the "true" ending. But, you need to learn to extend that same courtesy to others and not get angry with people for pointing out the continuity issues that you and other fans have been unable to successfully explain away. People are going to dislike things that you like. It's part of life. I enjoyed the latter seasons of the series. Other fans didn't and have been quite vocal about it. Did I insult them or let it affect my enjoyment of the series? Of course not! I enjoyed the end of Harry Potter. Other fans did not, and were extremely vocal about it. So what? I still like the ending, and that's that. They have the right to their opinion and I have the right to mine. Expressing your opinions is fine, but it needs to be done in a civil, mature manner.

      It doesn't matter whether you "buy" what Nickelodeon, the owner of TMNT, says. They get the official say on what's canon and what's not. That's the reality; you have every right to ignore the continuity issues and view it as the "true ending". Nobody is stopping you; everybody has a right to their own headcanon. Just don't expect other fans to do the same. I personally prefer to look at it logically, and find myself in the very strange position of agreeing with Nickelodeon's official position.

      I definitely would not call MA underrated, however. In fact, quite the opposite. "Overrrated" would seem much more appropriate.

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    • It's not overrated. I've been to as many sites as I can find that have discussed this story and while I, overall, have been able to find about a handful of people who share at least some views similar to mine; most of the people I've seen are as negative as can be, overly sentimental (and I mean WAY overly sentimental), very confused, or a mix of these three things. Sure the tide has turned some on the Technodrome forums, partially b/c I think some members have left while the franchise takes a hiatus from TV, but if you look around on a lot of other sites it's safe to say that my views are not in the majority and thus, I've got a lot of work ahead of me.  

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    • Funny, from what I've seen, the Technodrome forums have been uniformly positive about the whole arc, to the point where I was called a "mother****ing idiot" and my points decried as "stupid" for daring to point out how it has been decanonized and why that is totally valid (especially since it's based on actual canonical practices rather than "I lurvs the executive producer!").

      There were also posts referring to people who wanted something better as "childish" and a whole lot of other insulting, often elitist attitudes. All centering on that one arc. And, of course, no inference that it was now not the ending or that it wasn't canonical was permitted; I saw a few people try to debate it, and they generally got swatted down. Needless to say, I'm not fond of that forum, which I am not a member of because they apparently aren't approving new members.

      Yes, it is overrated. It is a decent AU/what-if arc, but a terrible concept for what it was originally intended to be. And I hope more and more people accept it as the AU it is. I'll certainly do my part. Happy thoughts!

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    • TMNT Insighter,

      It most certainly is overrated.  Clearly you haven't spent much time at the Technodrome forums, where they have been hysterically attempting to defend the arc and throw temper tantrums when people dare to even breathe the words "AU" or "non-canon".   I'm one of the people who debated them, and it got quite exhausting. Amusing, but exhausting.   Frankly, I stopped debating because it was taking up too much time, and I had a big test to get ready for (plus work and family obligations).  Nobody was able to actually successfully refute any of my points, now that I think about it.

      The detractors I have seen for this arc have been logical and thoughtful.  It's the fans who liked the arc (not all of them, but a large majority) who have been getting hysterical and throwing out insults at people who dare to disagree with them and refuse to overlook severe continuity errors.  Probably because they realize that they are unable to refute their arguments.  I know all movies/TV shows have plot holes, but this is one of the most jawdroppingly massive ones I have ever seen. 

      Easol1

      Very true.  I've done some lurking at that forum, and it's clear that other members are actually afraid of even suggesting that  the arc could be AU.  I have seen some fans timidly allude to it, then frantically add "I'm not saying it's not canon".    It's amusing in a way, but pathetic how some fans are unable to tolerate a difference in opinion....over a cartoon. I am tempted to go back, just to instigate another round of hissy fits.    I do need to at least respond to that one post that insulted you;  just on a matter of principle.  I apologize for not doing so before, but work has been too demanding for the past few months, and could not afford to get dragged into a further prolonged online argument.   Priorities *sigh*

      I, too shall continue to spread the AU word.  I've had people tell me that it helps :)

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    • Asfaloth12 wrote:
      Nobody was able to actually successfully refute any of my points, now that I think about it.

      Well, nobody's been able to even come close to refutation, as I've been able to tell. All attempts that I've seen to reconcile the continuity holes and contradictions have failed to deal with even most of them. Most of them either try to bring in material from other continuities (which are blatantly inconsistent with the series), or come up with incomplete solutions that aren't even hinted at in text or WOG (and thus are headcanons at best, fanfic at worst).

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    • The Iconoclast wrote:
      Nangbaby wrote:
      . The mutagen bomb is definitely technology from The Kraang, although that doesn't mean they launched it.
      Triceratons, perhaps? They could have easily stolen and modified some Kraang technology. 

      I agree that, like "Same As It Never Was", this could be only a possible future. The secret to preventing the apocolypse must lie in one of Raph's lost memories, likely something that, at the time, seemed insignificant.

      Triceratons probably couldn't of gotten the bomb. According to the flashbacks, the bomb was lifted FROM New York and then descended upon the city. If the Triceratons returned and made a second attempt on Earth, the EPF would've detected those guys as well as the Utrom. Ever since Tokka VS The World, they were really serious about any incoming ships to Earth ever since. If the arc was non canon, which isn't supposed to be non canon, it wouldn't matter because the Kraang could've survived or something. Since it is canon, there are still possibilities it could be 1987 Krang, his technology is really dangerous and he is/was allied to the Kraang before they disappeared. He knew TCRI was where all the remaining Kraang technology was held, he could've stolen a bomb and plus, the mutagen wasn't perfected. We know for sure the Kraang did not do that since they wanted to make a second "Dimension X", not a never ending wasteland. Moving on from the "who did it", As we see in the flashbacks (the first one before Leonardo's) the bomb released mutagen gas or something? Because the humans mutated even tho they haven't come in contact with the mutagen itself. I don't think the Kraang are capable of that (I probably underestimated them). Then the second flashback, the turtles were UNDER the bomb somehow. The first flashback showed them in front of the Empire State Building and to the left of it, was the bomb. Why would they go under the bomb in the first place? Either that or Raph's flashbacks were incorrect, I mean he was hit in the head and couldn't remember much. I wish we got some mini arc or series, maybe even in 2D showing the events before the Mutant Apocalypse arc, showing Raph and Donnie under the sewers bracing from the bomb. Having "lost" Mikey and Leo. They return to the destroyed lair where the only two things were a robot that Donnie was building before the bomb thus turning him into Donbot and the Shellraiser. It would be cool to see a mini series like that but it is unlikely now. :(

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    • GhostDaGhost wrote:

      Triceratons probably couldn't of gotten the bomb. According to the flashbacks, the bomb was lifted FROM New York and then descended upon the city. If the Triceratons returned and made a second attempt on Earth, the EPF would've detected those guys as well as the Utrom. Ever since Tokka VS The World, they were really serious about any incoming ships to Earth ever since. If the arc was non canon, which isn't supposed to be non canon, it wouldn't matter because the Kraang could've survived or something. Since it is canon, there are still possibilities it could be 1987 Krang, his technology is really dangerous and he is/was allied to the Kraang before they disappeared. 

      Well, lots of things can happen in alternate futures and non-canon tales, and since this is one now, and nobody bothered to write in a coherent explanation... no telling. Maybe it was an alternate version of the Kraang. It doesn't seem like something done by 1987 Krang, since he was more interested in ruling than destroying, and he preferred to simply do that by brute force.

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    • Or what about Lord Dregg? Do you think he could've activated that bomb?

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    • BTW, this forum's been lasting for over 100 days. Just saying.

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    • I'm both new and late and, for all I care, irrevelevant to this forum but I was honestly disappointed to find out that Oasis was just an actual oasis and not the sewer lair or some other place of significance (like the farmhouse). The first time I watched the MA arc I felt like it was being set up for that to be the case, especially with Mikey being behind the map to Oasis. I just want to know did anyone else have similar thoughts the first time they watched it or was it just me???

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    • I agree. I mean, sure there's water and plants but they're gonna get bored out of their brains for the next couple years. And plus, if Mikey made the map, why didn't he already go there instead of staying at that pizza place? And why would it be printed on Mira's arm of all places!?

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    • GhostDaGhost

      Since the arc can only take place in an alternate reality/dimension, I agree that it could have been an alternate version of the Kraang.  Perhaps this version of the Kraang made a much more unpredictable, volatile version of the mutagen as well. *shrugs* Perhaps they were ultimately defeated/destroyed, like in the main canon timeline/reality, but the Turtles were still unable to stop the Mutagen bomb from going off.   Perhaps a more prolonged war with the Triceratons or some other alien species that resulted in the moon being damaged.  So many different possibilities in an alternate timeline ;)

      Fishface405, 

      Hmm...never thought about Lord Dregg.  He certainly could have survived in the alternate timeline/reality.  Not sure how he would have gotten the Kraang tech, but we can use our imaginations, I suppose ;)

      I have to agree with you on the oasis.  Plus, how long is the oasis going to last anyway?  The world around it is effectively dead.   No idea why Mikey didn't go there;  one of many things about the arc that made no sense.   Re: Mira.  It's been a little while since I watched the arc, but did everybody in her clan have that tattooed on their arms.  If so, who gave it to them?  Mikey?  If so, why in the good Lord's name weren't they all at the Oasis already?  Nonsensical, indeed.

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    • Exactley. This arc bsically sums up everything bad about this series into a 3-episodes-long turd.

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    • Easol1 wrote:
      GhostDaGhost wrote:

      Triceratons probably couldn't of gotten the bomb. According to the flashbacks, the bomb was lifted FROM New York and then descended upon the city. If the Triceratons returned and made a second attempt on Earth, the EPF would've detected those guys as well as the Utrom. Ever since Tokka VS The World, they were really serious about any incoming ships to Earth ever since. If the arc was non canon, which isn't supposed to be non canon, it wouldn't matter because the Kraang could've survived or something. Since it is canon, there are still possibilities it could be 1987 Krang, his technology is really dangerous and he is/was allied to the Kraang before they disappeared. 

      Well, lots of things can happen in alternate futures and non-canon tales, and since this is one now, and nobody bothered to write in a coherent explanation... no telling. Maybe it was an alternate version of the Kraang. It doesn't seem like something done by 1987 Krang, since he was more interested in ruling than destroying, and he preferred to simply do that by brute force.

      Indeed.  One argument we've seen is that Renet comes from outside of time....except she explicitly states that this is not the case in this incarnation.  She literally says in her first appearance "I come from the future".   That's not "outside of time". There is no mention whatsoever of Null Time.  Humanity is gone in the MA dimension/reality.  As far as we know, Renet is human;  there is no way she could exist in this reality since humanity is wiped out.  Now, could she be a humanoid alien?  Perhaps, but there is absolutely nothing in the show to remotely support that, either.    But, the fact remains that she seeks out the Turtles in the first place because they are "Warriors of Legend".  The turtles were able to go back in time to save Splinter, thus ensuring their own mutations later on, because they met Renet.  Without Renet, the main canon timeline literally falls apart. 

      Another argument -->Renet confused these turtles with another version of the Turtles.  Nope.  Savanti Romero and Lord Simultaneous recognized them, too.

      I've seen other arguments that the Turtles will create some sort of new "Eden" in that oasis and that will somehow count as saving the world "many times".   Despite the fact that the world is a post-apocalyptic wasteland incapable of supporting a civilization that will one day progress enough to develop time travel.

      Or that defeating "Maximus Kong" would count as saving the world.....except for the fact that this dimension/reality's version of Leo was Maximus Kong.   I find it unlikely that Leo, in this reality, could ever become known as a hero after spending decades conquering the wasteland. 

      Then, there's this tiny detail....there really is no world left to save.  This is basically dead world, or at least one on its very last legs.

      Fishface405,

      Every series has its flaws.  In this case, for the vast majority of the series, the flaws were minor enough that they didn't affect my enjoyment at all.  However, in the this arc, those flaws were indeed ramped up and allowed to coalesce in the rancid diarrhea known as Mutant Apocalypse.

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    • I feel you. This arc is nothing but a polished turd. I just can't believe they even had the audacity to make this the finale of the entire series.

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    • Asfaloth12

      I've seen those same arguments. As far as I've seen, none of these theories really stand up to scrutiny because none of them are in any way supported by the actual events of the series or WOG (like insisting that this Renet is from another dimension, or mistaken, or lying, etc). Or they're things that just wouldn't happen (like the attempts to reconcile "legendary" and "many times" with the arc), again with no support from the actual series or WOG.

      And not a single one of those arguments can actually reconcile the two completely disparate outcomes, like explaining how Renet and her future can exist. At least, I've not seen any, and I've seen a pretty big range of theories.

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    • Fishface405 wrote:
      I feel you. This arc is nothing but a polished turd. I just can't believe they even had the audacity to make this the finale of the entire series.

      Well, they tried to make it the finale.    But, their evil plan was thwarted ;)  Fortunately, Nickelodeon actually made a good decision for once.   It's strange that they greenlit the arc in the first place.  But, at least they partially redeemed themselves in the end.  I also have a new appreciation for Renet.   She and her description of the future are one of the main factors that prevent this arc from fitting into the canon timeline, after all.                                           

      We're actually quite lucky.  As a passionate fan of Star Wars, especially of Luke Skywalker, I can confirm that things could be much worse.  (No offense intended if you're a Star Wars fan who liked The Last Jedi.  To each their own).

      This polished turd could have been the official canon finale,  but we were spared that, thank goodness.

      Easol1,

      Agreed.  There is no way this arc fits into the main canon timeline.  Thank you, Renet!  Seriously, though?  Were the showrunners just hoping we wouldn't notice, or that we would forget what Renet said?   Part of me actually wonders if they were trolling us. 

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    • Their plan was not thwarted b/c anyone with a brain can tell it's the series finale despite the airdates! The time and setting, the lack of AU evidence or devices, etc. etc. all that stuff! The only reason it aired out of order is b/c Nick has sucked since scheduling since "Parasitica". Brandon Auman said that Nick discourages serialized stories and prefers standalones they can play out of order so it's no wonder they couldn't handle all those multiparters in a row. 

      And forget about Renet, would you already?! The future is NOT written in stone; "Earth's Last Stand" (even the fact that Casey and April could disappear from time AT ALL as "Tale of the Yokai" shows is a good example too), the final season of "Samurai Jack", etc. help to prove it and Renet is not some authority figure or word of law/God when it comes to time (she's basically a kid afterall for crying out loud!) Move on.

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    • Actually, Nick specifically said that it wasn't the series finale, and that production order did not matter. It wasn't just an airdate screwup, it was a deliberate choice. I can show you the screencap of the statement if you like. It may have been originally intended to be the series finale, but it wasn't. 

      Yes, their plan was thwarted. It was declared non-canon, full stop. For once, Nick got it right.

      And you would really like us to forget about Renet and "move on," because if we don't, the entire continuity makes zero sense. Please, for all our sakes, stop citing Samurai Jack as some sort of "proof" that MA isn't a continuity error so big it derails the entire series. Samurai Jack and its continuity errors are entirely irrelevant. Renet's very existence is incompatible with the MA arc, and with her the existence of the Turtles themselves (which completely derails the "the future isn't set in stone" argument, since they did in fact have a fate set in stone in "Tale of the Yokai" and any references from the Time Lords, who presumably know how to keep things from spinning out of control).

      No, I won't forget about Renet, because I shouldn't have to "forget" about a pivotal character's very existence, let alone the stuff that happened in their "past" (not future, to her), in order to justify continuity so wrong it cannot actually exist.

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    • That's not Nickelodeon who said that! That's just some Twitter poser claiming to be the official voice of Nick! That guy can kiss my ass for all I care! Nickelodeon got nothing right except to air every single Tale except for the Kavaxas arc (which should've instead been the final 4 episodes of S4 instead) out of freakin' order! I'll tell you what, if Nickelodeon releases an official company statement and/or brings all the artists back to include a final scene in the MA arc to show that it was all an AU, then I'll believe it. Until then, forget it!

      And don't tell anyone that SJ is irrelevant! It's VERY relevant! First consider the fact that it's one of the greatest action cartoons ever made and it was made by one of the best animators ever. Then look at the S3 episode involving the Guardian supposedly hinting at Jack's future at the end. Then skip ahead to before the final season even began with every fan expecting it to happen. Then it doesn't happen. The same thing happened with Renet's claims.

      And how in the world is she a "pivotal" character?! Because the turtles had to make sure a future that already happened and that was starting to actually fade away ended up occuring by themselves? Because they then contradicted the future being written in stone by rewriting history in "Earth's Last Stand" without her around again? Because she came back for a lame Halloween story that never should've been told? Because the future she proposed didn't happen? Oh she was so pivotal all right! XD 

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    • Yes, it's the official Nick twitter, and I somehow doubt a lucrative franchise's representation FROM INSIDE NICKELODEON would be given over to a "some Twitter poser." It's official, used for official statements and fan interactions.

      And technically, they did offer a company statement. It's called a press release, in which they referred to MA as "in another dimension" and a "special."

      Yes, SJ is irrelevant. It has no connection to the Ninja Turtles except that it also had a continuity gaffe, and not one that precludes the characters even existing. Being a great show doesn't make it relevant to TMNT or the discussion. The fact that a great show had a continuity error does not mean that it isn't an error, it does not mean that continuity and logic are unimportant because another show got away with it, and it does not excuse a different show's continuity error so massive it completely disrupts its own existence.

      Yes, Renet is pivotal, because without her the Turtles wouldn't have been able to ensure their entire existence. And the future she mentioned not happening is a big problem because as I have repeatedly stated, she and the future she is from could not even exist in the MA continuity. 

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    • You lied in all four paragraphs Easol1 and the fact that you're allowed to edit material here is a disgrace to this site!

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    • And now we're descending into personal attacks. 

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    • Fishface405 wrote:
      Angel Bridge, there is technically a confirmation. Nickeldeon has confirmed that the "Mutant Apocalypse" arc is indeed

      NON-CANON!!!



      HUZZAH!!

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    • Fishface405 wrote:
      Aaaaannnd here we go again.



      Once more, around the horn...

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    • Asfaloth12 wrote:
      Easol1,

      Ah, yes.  "Mirage style".   Does that mean sexist, substandard storytelling riddled with embarrassingly, insultingly obvious plot holes...no, plot craters?    No thank you.  They can take their "Mirage style" and stick it where the sun doesn't shine.  I prefer good, quality storytelling that makes sense, doesn't insult the viewers, and doesn't treat women as objects to be disposed of.

      I'm still sorry about your friend,  and it truly saddens me to have potentially lost a fellow member of the fandom for this (overall) awesome show  :(  It makes one wonder how many others may leave the fandom because of this;  hopefully they don't completely swear of all incarnations of the TMNT for good.  Frankly, it is starting to really tick me off.  How many people may have used this show as an escape, and then have it hurt them instead?   Indeed, it may not be a bad idea for her to take a break from 2012 TMNT,  until she feels that she is at a point where she can assess the situation for herself, ignore the whining from the edgelords ( you have to be in a good, stable place mentally in order to do that), and decide for herself whether this makes any sense at all in the canon timeline.  We know it doesn't make sense at all in canon and are able to roll our eyes at the edgelords, but depression/anxiety are terrible conditions that don't always allow for clear thinking (sadly, I am speaking from past personal experience here).   It would be a shame for her to lose something she enjoyed just because some dude had a temper tantrum (that wasn't very nice of me, I know, but I find it difficult to care).   And then she could just avoid re-watching the polished turd if she ever gives the series a try again (hope she does!).  Owari/Kavaxas arc makes a nice ending point, or even the Crossover/Lone Rat (since they're on the same DVD). 

      Once again, I personally refuse to let some dude ruin something I enjoy, just because he wanted to throw a hissy fit.

      Glad to hear she is willing to give the 2003 series a try!  Personally, it is one of my favorite incarnations ( competing with the 2012 series and the 1990 movie), at least the first 3 seasons (had issues with Karai's arc in the later seasons, as well as the resolution of Leo's PTSD arc).  Love Mike Sinterniklaas as Leonardo (he might be very favorite Leo, actually).  In fact,   I was in the middle of re-watching...until the polished turd aired.  Hope she enjoys it :)

      Best of luck to her :)  Sorry if I sound crabby.  Just had an exhausting week following a big test, and my patience is running thin.

      Fishface405,

      I'm lucky in that I enjoyed most of the rest of Season 5.   Even the weakest of the non-Mutant Apocalypse arcs look like masterpieces next to that polished turd. That said, End Times does make a good ending to the main CANON storyline. 

      True to the both of you. I'm not gonna let that crap arc ruin TMNT for me. This is what happens when you let Raph write fanfics based on movies he bingewatched. I'm still a TMNT fan and will return for the 2018 series.

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    • Fishface405 wrote:
      I feel you. This arc is nothing but a polished turd. I just can't believe they even had the audacity to make this the finale of the entire series.



      Why, the nerve of them!

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    • Their plan was not thwarted b/c anyone with a brain can tell it's the series finale despite the airdates!

      Oh, yes it was indeed thwarted.  I continue to rejoice in that fact, and I think, deep down, you realize it :)  Anyody with a brain can figure out that the MA arc is incapable of fitting into the canon timeline, as long as they have actually watched Turtles in Time recently.  Anybody with a brain should be able to read the official TMNT twitter (a verified account, by the way) and see that Nick officially made Wanted: Bebop and Rocksteady the finale.

      And forget about Renet, would you already?!

      Make me.  Easol1 already explained why, in an above comment, so I won't repeat what she said.  You have utterly failed to explain away the contradictions surrounding Renet and the future she comes from.   It's interesting how some fans are so eager to ignore, erase or dispose of strong female characters, or at least disparage their abilities and accomplishments.

      Because the future she proposed didn't happen?

      ...You do realize you just explained why the MA arc is incapable of fitting into the canon timeline, right?  Perhaps, now, you are starting to understand.  Oh, and it's not the future she "proposed".  It's the future she came from;  a future with an advanced civilization capable of time travel and with Turtle Warriors of Legend.   You really need to watch Turtles in Time.  I think it would really help clear up a few things for you :)

      You lied in all four paragraphs Easol1 and the fact that you're allowed to edit material here is a disgrace to this site!

      Do you have any evidence of that?  No?  If you have to resort to insults and personal attack instead of formulating an intelligent counter-argument, that may be a sign that you have lost the debate.  It would be wise to concede defeat instead of continuing to make yourself look foolish.

      True to the both of you. I'm not gonna let that crap arc ruin TMNT for me. This is what happens when you let Raph write fanfics based on movies he bingewatched. I'm still a TMNT fan and will return for the 2018 series.

      Good for you!  I agree.  There is no reason at all to allow a non-canon arc ruin your enjoyment of the main canon storyline.     Raph's isn't quite ready to share his fanfiction with the world; or his fanart for that matter.  Leo was quite displeased with the depiction of his counterpart, ("why the heck does my head look like a nipple, Raph?" and still has not forgiven Raph ;)

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    • Asfaloth12 wrote:
      Their plan was not thwarted b/c anyone with a brain can tell it's the series finale despite the airdates!

      Oh, yes it was indeed thwarted.  I continue to rejoice in that fact, and I think, deep down, you realize it :)  Anyody with a brain can figure out that the MA arc is incapable of fitting into the canon timeline, as long as they have actually watched Turtles in Time recently.  Anybody with a brain should be able to read the official TMNT twitter (a verified account, by the way) and see that Nick officially made Wanted: Bebop and Rocksteady the finale.

      And forget about Renet, would you already?!

      Make me.  Easol1 already explained why, in an above comment, so I won't repeat what she said.  You have utterly failed to explain away the contradictions surrounding Renet and the future she comes from.   It's interesting how some fans are so eager to ignore, erase or dispose of strong female characters, or at least disparage their abilities and accomplishments.

      Because the future she proposed didn't happen?

      ...You do realize you just explained why the MA arc is incapable of fitting into the canon timeline, right?  Perhaps, now, you are starting to understand.  Oh, and it's not the future she "proposed".  It's the future she came from;  a future with an advanced civilization capable of time travel and with Turtle Warriors of Legend.   You really need to watch Turtles in Time.  I think it would really help clear up a few things for you :)

      You lied in all four paragraphs Easol1 and the fact that you're allowed to edit material here is a disgrace to this site!

      Do you have any evidence of that?  No?  If you have to resort to insults and personal attack instead of formulating an intelligent counter-argument, that may be a sign that you have lost the debate.  It would be wise to concede defeat instead of continuing to make yourself look foolish.

      True to the both of you. I'm not gonna let that crap arc ruin TMNT for me. This is what happens when you let Raph write fanfics based on movies he bingewatched. I'm still a TMNT fan and will return for the 2018 series.

      Good for you!  I agree.  There is no reason at all to allow a non-canon arc ruin your enjoyment of the main canon storyline.     Raph's isn't quite ready to share his fanfiction with the world; or his fanart for that matter.  Leo was quite displeased with the depiction of his counterpart, ("why the heck does my head look like a nipple, Raph?" and still has not forgiven Raph ;)


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    • Dude, I hated how my favorite Turtle turned into a complete monster in this arc. And Wingnut II, I agree. His head does look like a nipple XD

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    • Fishface405, Leo is also my favorite turtle. Technically, though, this was an alternate version of Leo :) Both logically and officially. Thank goodness. His arc, or what little arc he had, was just painfully stupid. I first saw somebody on Tumblr refer to MA!Leo as "mutant nipple man". Since then, I have not been able to unsee it. His head looks like a friggin nipple. Ciro Nieli, please stay far, far away from these turtles. You have proven yourself an unfit turtle parent ;)

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    • Jason Bourne Hamato wrote:
      Yeah....A mutated Razar-style Casey would have been REALLY cool to see.
      Wait...what would we call him? "Case-zar"?



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    • Asfaloth12 wrote:
      Fishface405,

      Leo is also my favorite turtle. Technically, though, this was an alternate version of Leo :) Both logically and officially. Thank goodness. His arc, or what little arc he had, was just painfully stupid. I first saw somebody on Tumblr refer to MA!Leo as "mutant nipple man". Since then, I have not been able to unsee it. His head looks like a friggin nipple. Ciro Nieli, please stay far, far away from these turtles. You have proven yourself an unfit turtle parent ;)


      Wingnut II: Let's hope the new guys do better than Nieli...and that the Turtles can get a restraining order against him.




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    • My thoughts on this was.... EVERYBODY BUT DONNIE BECAME UGLY! RAPH, MIKEY, LEO, AND THAT WEIRD MEERKAT GIRL! 

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    • but i still liked this arc

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    • Not to critcize your opinion or anything but why do you like this arc? It's nothing but an hour-long turd of depression.

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    • Fishface405:

      My sentiments exactly!

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    • Let's hope the new guys do better than Nieli...and that the Turtles can get a restraining order against him.

      I actually enjoyed most of what Nieli did for this show, and look forward to future re-watches of the canon episodes;  sadly, this may now be forever overshadowed by his lame attempt to end this show with the Polished Turd of Nihilism.  

      But, I strongly agree with you on the restraining order ;)

      It's nothing but an hour-long turd of depression.

      I absolutely love this description.  Even if you ignore the nihilism, the disposal of the main female characters, and the jaw-droppingly massive plot abyss, you still have a weak story. It was indeed a turd.   There were a couple good moments, but not nearly enough to salvage it.  The animation was good, with the exception of some mind-numbingly bad character designs. 

      EVERYBODY BUT DONNIE BECAME UGLY! RAPH, MIKEY, LEO, AND THAT WEIRD MEERKAT GIRL! 

      Meh.  I'm just glad it's not canon :)   Seriously, these versions of the turtles didn't even act like the canon versions.   You're the first person I've seen who has referred to Mira as ugly, lol.   I didn't much care for her design, and I thought her charcter was pretty bland and forgettable, to be honest.  We could have a whole philosophical discussion over whether that robot is truly Donatell or not. 

      As for the turtles becoming ugly, I suspect that Ciro was jealous of all the Turtles' fangirls, so he tried to disfigure them (just joking!).   Actually Raph just likes to make some very strange fanart to accompany his fanfic :P

      They still look adorable in the canon timeline/reality, at least for now (they do lead dangerous lives after all;  they could always be injured and/or scarred in a bad fight). 

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    • Asfaloth12 wrote:

      TMNT Insighter,

      It most certainly is overrated....  

      ...Clearly you haven't spent much time at the Technodrome forums, where they have been hysterically attempting to defend the arc and throw temper tantrums when people dare to even breathe the words "AU" or "non-canon". ...

      ...Nobody was able to actually successfully refute any of my points, now that I think about it.

      ...

      1) Even though it's still hard to find much love for the arc, I'm still glad you feel that way. And the fact that it is underrated is exactly why I brought the Final Chapters DVD instead of just buying the Usagi episodes on my Roku.

      2) Can't say I blame them because, you know, they're right!

      3) Pffft! Keep telling yourself that.



      And I'm sorry for the overreaction last time Easol, but there is no way that this arc is non-cannon! It's not! Production order, setting, Nick's approval and airing of it, the main man in charge sticking to his guns, and no in-episode evidence that it is an AU (and possibly the idea/fact that the future isn't written in stone) are, or should be, enough to determine its canonocity--and certainly not some guy pretending to be the voice for all of Nickelodeon via social networking! I don't know how many more ways I can put it! And I'll tell you something else; Triggerman and the rest of the mods/editors here need to either acknowledge that it's canon on the pages here involving the arc, or at least have it written on said pages that it's debatable thanks to the controversy that we the fans have built! There's no other way around it!

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    • Actually, one of the two main men for the show has recently stated that it's valid to view it as an AU; he stated that the audience decides whether it's canon or an AU. So it's at the very least far from "no way" and into the territory of "valid viewpoint" if we're going by WOG.

      Also, repeatedly saying that the future isn't written in stone can't ignore the fact of a paradox. Good writing doesn't cause paradoxes. Nor does it erase the simple fact that, as I've said about six hundred times, the entire future Renet is FROM is a complete impossibility with the MA arc. Just responding that the future isn't written in stone does not address the problem, because quite simply there's no way for whole swathes of the show - and the existence of the Turtles - to exist in harmony with MA. It just does not work, and no amount of shrugging about the future not being set in stone will hide that fact.

      You also need to know that being declared non-canon has nothing to do with in-story writing. Exhibit A: The Guest Era of Mirage comics. All that is needed is for the person/people who hold the rights of the material to declare it non-canon, as has been done repeatedly in franchises' history. That is literally all that's needed.

      And I don't know how many more times I can say it: you don't get to just ignore an official source merely because its statements are inconvenient, and dismiss it as "some guy pretending." That ain't how it works.

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    • Fishface405 wrote:

      Not to critcize your opinion or anything but why do you like this arc? It's nothing but an hour-long turd of depression.

      I believe I stated my reasons elsewhere on this page but I'll do them again b/c you're not like Easol or Asfaloth. Regarding what you just said, it's not as depressing an episode as a lot of people point it out to be mostly because it has just as much a campy tone as it does a postapocalyptic gloom and doom feel. Hair on turtles is one thing (the Transformers franchise is guilty of that a lot too which is one of the many reasons I can't take that franchise seriously either), but the campiness of the villains, the Mad Max tone mixed with the Mirage vibe, and that final Space Hereos TNG episode are several more things too. About that Mirage vibe though, I definitely think this is one of those kind of stories that Eastman and Laird would've written back in their days at that place (as if that final Mirage based picture at the end wasn't a final indicator that this episode may as well have been a love letter to them and what/where they started) which is another reason both to find something to enjoy in it as well as to not take it as seriously as others want me to; indeed, from the beginning this franchise has had to balance the serious and the non serious whether on paper or on screen and for the most part it was successful as I believe that was the case here. I also have a soft spot for characters who have lost everything and go on this search to either find redemption, salvation, and/or the things they've lost which is what the case was in the end, and that's also why I believe the search for Oasis was (or was supposed to be interpreted as) more a symbolic journey than a literal one to find the family they had lost which has been a major theme for not only this series but pretty much the franchise since its inception. I also don't mind the mystery behind the mutagen bomb since I believe the culprit and their motives behind it don't really matter when you've got the search for everyone and the theme of family as the main focus and driving force of the story, and I don't mind the time jump either since the leap forward in years allowed for a reset that gave the story slight permission to refocus on a whole new story that didn't have room for those not directly involved with it. The animation was also really good, I don't think the character designs were as bad as everyone says they are (I can make Mikey an exception but I can't let something as trivial as character designs cloud my judgement of the episode itself), and Leo's turn as a villain was actually the most interesting part of the story to me since he mirrored his worst enemy all the way down to his motivation: the loss of the person he loved and the disentegration of his relationship with the only family he had ever known. The mutagen bomb may have affected Leo some but I believe the loss of those he cared for drove him into being the way Saki ended up and it took the reunion of those he cared for to bring him back to himself. Plus, Robo Donnie was awesome! I believe the stuff I mentioned here is more than enough to compensate for any shortcomings the script has. 

      Now would I put it in my top 10? No. While I like this arc on its own terms (save for the raunchy humor in the middle entry for sure), I don't think they necessarily had to go this route in the end either although not to the egrigious extent that most of the other fans think so. And from the overall fan reactions to the finale, I don't think the creators took them into account when they made this (here's looking at Mass Effect), which is something you have to do because to me, the finale IS everything! It may seem unfair but it's a lot like the Super Bowl game in the NFL, that being it's the only one that matters--like they say, you have to save your best for last. "Lost" and "Dexter" never recovered their reputations after their polarizing if not really bad finales, it's just the way the cookie crumbles. Like Steve Forbes said, "It's better to arrive at a conclusion than to justify it" and the fact that I've had to spend a lot of time here and elsewhere stating how it's not so bad is a real damper (as well as the fact that I'm still waiting for Ciro to address this whole controversy). Now that's just nitpicking as compared to my second reason and it's that this arc proved what made the later seasons, most of all this one, so disappointing in the fact that it seemed the creators took more effort into referencing stuff (even though even the issues of TMNT old are guilty of that too) and bringing in other characters from this franchise (in this case the Scale Tale clan) than fulfilling established storylines and wrapping up loose ends. Now they cheated by blowing up their loose ends as one person put it to me, so while I can't really say they didn't wrap up loose ends I still don't have to entirely like that they did it in that fashion. That's why I can't overall stand S5 save for the Usagi trilogy for certain; since the Kavaxas arc, the Halloween arc, and the second half of the WWC arc were truly awful! It was their last chance and aside from giving the Newtralizer a final fate, it seemed they didn't even bother. Still, like I said, the first one is more of a nit than my second reason is. So what I'm saying is that while MA isn't top 10 for me, it's certainly Best of the Rest (probably #12 or #13 out of 124 total episodes). Thanks for your interest Fishface and thanks for reading.

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    • Even though it's still hard to find much love for the arc

      It's pretty bad, I agree.  Truly a polished turd. 

      I'm still glad you feel that way.

      I am, too!  It's been a blast making fun of the arc :)

      And the fact that it is underrated

      That's not a fact.  I would argue the exact opposite --> it's quite overrated.  I have seen people refer to it as a "masterpiece" despite the weak storytelling  riddled with massive plot holes/canon contradictions.  

       Can't say I blame them because, you know, they're right!

      If they were right, then they would be able to calmly offer an intelligent counter-argument, which they have utterly failed to do.  Instead they have to resort to tantrums and insults.  This suggests that they do not have an intelligent counter-argument, and they realize it deep down.   

      Pffft! Keep telling yourself that.

      Once again, you have no counter-argument to offer. Thank you for proving my point.


      And I'm sorry for the overreaction last time Easol,

      It's good that you're apologizing to Easol.  You certainly owe them one. Yes, it was an overreaction, and it needs to stop.  

      but there is no way that this arc is non-cannon!

      I would argue the opposite is true.--> 1)  It is impossible for the arc to fit into the canon timeline ( for reasons that have been stated repeatedly;  if you have forgotten them , then I suggest you review previous comments).  2) According to Nickelodeon, it is officially non-canon. 

       no in-episode evidence that it is an AU (and possibly the idea/fact that the future isn't written in stone) are, or should be, enough to determine its canonocity--and certainly not some guy pretending to be the voice for all of Nickelodeon via social networking!

      In-episode evidence?  How about the entire episode....taking place in a post-apocalyptic wasteland?  Which directly contradicts the future that Renet comes from?  Oh, and "some guy" is the verified TMNT twitter account.  Try again :)

      And I'll tell you something else; Triggerman and the rest of the mods/editors here need to either acknowledge that it's canon on the pages here involving the arc, or at least have it written on said pages that it's debatable thanks to the controversy that we the fans have built! 

      Why do they need to "acknowledge" something that is clearly untrue?  The arc is not officially canon.  Ciro may have wanted it to be canon, but he was (rightfully) overruled.  Mentioning the controversy is not necessary, either. 

      as well as to not take it as seriously as others want me to

      Actually, you are taking this way too seriously, trying to force people to ignore logic and accept it as "canon" when it doesn't make any sense.

      the fact that I've had to spend a lot of time here and elsewhere stating how it's not so bad is a real damper 

      ((Plays the worlds tiniest violin))  Newsflash:  People are going to dislike things that you like.  Realizing this is a part of growing up.  It's something I realized during my time in the Harry Potter fandom (especially with some of the downright nasty arguments over different pairings. As another example, I liked the epilogue, but other fans hated it).   I was much happier once I learned this and matured :)

      Leo's turn as a villain was actually the most interesting part of the story to me since he mirrored his worst enemy all the way down to his motivation: the loss of the person he loved and the disentegration of his relationship with the only family he had ever known

      In my opinion, that was one of the dumbest parts of the already very weak story.  I also disagree with your assessment.  Shredder was motivated by jealousy and revenge.   Plus, he purposely mutated himself.  This timeline's version of Leo simply went crazy and lost his memory after the Mutagen bomb turned him into Nipplehead.  This was due to his making a heroic sacrifice to save his family.....although there's no explanation as to why he stands there like a doofus instead of jumping off the roof with his family....or why the other three weren't smart enough to jump off on their own.  He didn't even know who he was and didn't remember his family.  At all.  He had no recollection of the family he had lost. 

      And thus,  Nipplehead proceeded to put a bucket on his head and drive around the desert in a truck and act like an idiot for decades.  Then, when he gets his memory back, he shows no concern over the friends he had lost or the fact that he was a wasteland conquering murderer for decades. 

      I'm so glad this isn't canon.  It would have been an insult to Leo's true character  :)

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    • Asfaloth12 wrote:

      Even though it's still hard to find much love for the arc

      It's pretty bad, I agree.  Truly a polished turd. 

      I'm still glad you feel that way.

      I am, too!  It's been a blast making fun of the arc :)

      And the fact that it is underrated

      That's not a fact.  I would argue the exact opposite --> it's quite overrated.  I have seen people refer to it as a "masterpiece" despite the weak storytelling  riddled with massive plot holes/canon contradictions.  

       Can't say I blame them because, you know, they're right!

      If they were right, then they would be able to calmly offer an intelligent counter-argument, which they have utterly failed to do.  Instead they have to resort to tantrums and insults.  This suggests that they do not have an intelligent counter-argument, and they realize it deep down.   

      Pffft! Keep telling yourself that.

      Once again, you have no counter-argument to offer. Thank you for proving my point.


      And I'm sorry for the overreaction last time Easol,

      It's good that you're apologizing to Easol.  You certainly owe them one. Yes, it was an overreaction, and it needs to stop.  

      but there is no way that this arc is non-cannon!

      I would argue the opposite is true.--> 1)  It is impossible for the arc to fit into the canon timeline ( for reasons that have been stated repeatedly;  if you have forgotten them , then I suggest you review previous comments).  2) According to Nickelodeon, it is officially non-canon. 

       no in-episode evidence that it is an AU (and possibly the idea/fact that the future isn't written in stone) are, or should be, enough to determine its canonocity--and certainly not some guy pretending to be the voice for all of Nickelodeon via social networking!

      In-episode evidence?  How about the entire episode....taking place in a post-apocalyptic wasteland?  Which directly contradicts the future that Renet comes from?  Oh, and "some guy" is the verified TMNT twitter account.  Try again :)

      And I'll tell you something else; Triggerman and the rest of the mods/editors here need to either acknowledge that it's canon on the pages here involving the arc, or at least have it written on said pages that it's debatable thanks to the controversy that we the fans have built! 

      Why do they need to "acknowledge" something that is clearly untrue?  The arc is not officially canon.  Ciro may have wanted it to be canon, but he was (rightfully) overruled.  Mentioning the controversy is not necessary, either. 

      as well as to not take it as seriously as others want me to

      Actually, you are taking this way too seriously, trying to force people to ignore logic and accept it as "canon" when it doesn't make any sense.

      the fact that I've had to spend a lot of time here and elsewhere stating how it's not so bad is a real damper 

      ((Plays the worlds tiniest violin))  Newsflash:  People are going to dislike things that you like.  Realizing this is a part of growing up.  It's something I realized with Harry Potter.  I was much happier once I learned this and matured :)

      Leo's turn as a villain was actually the most interesting part of the story to me since he mirrored his worst enemy all the way down to his motivation: the loss of the person he loved and the disentegration of his relationship with the only family he had ever known

      In my opinion, that was one of the dumbest parts of the already very weak story.  I also disagree with your assessment.  Shredder was motivated by jealousy and revenge.   Plus, he purposely mutated himself.  This timeline's version of Leo simply went crazy and lost his memory after the Mutagen bomb turned him into Nipplehead.  This was due to his making a heroic sacrifice to save his family.....although there's no explanation as to why he stands there like a doofus instead of jumping off the roof with his family....or why the other three weren't smart enough to jump off on their own.  He didn't even know who he was and didn't remember his family.  At all.  He had no recollection of the family he had lost. 

      And thus,  Nipplehead proceeded to put a bucket on his head and drive around the desert in a truck and act like an idiot for decades.  Then, when he gets his memory back, he shows no concern over the friends he had lost or the fact that he was a wasteland conquering murderer for decades. 

      I'm so glad this isn't canon.  It would have been an insult to Leo's true character  :)

      This made me laugh. Especially the "Nipplehead" bits. Raph, next time leave the writing to Mikey.

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    • TMNTInsighter
      TMNTInsighter removed this reply because:
      Bad formatting job from phone.
      23:47, February 13, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • TMNTInsighter wrote:

      Asfaloth12 wrote:

      </p>

       Can't say I blame them because, you know, they're right!

      If they were right, then they would be able to calmly offer an intelligent counter-argument, which they have utterly failed to do.  Instead they have to resort to tantrums and insults.  This suggests that they do not have an intelligent counter-argument, and they realize it deep down.   


      And I'm sorry for the overreaction last time Easol,

      It's good that you're apologizing to Easol.  You certainly owe them one. Yes, it was an overreaction, and it needs to stop.  

      but there is no way that this

      </p><p><b>the fact that I've had to spend a lot of time here and elsewhere stating how it's not so bad is a real damper </b>

      </p><p>((Plays the worlds tiniest violin))  Newsflash:  People are going to dislike things that you like.  Realizing this is a part of growing up.  It's something I realized with Harry Potter.  I was much happier once I learned this and matured :)

      </p><p>I'm so glad this isn't canon.  It would have been an insult to Leo's true character  :)

      </p>

      Honestly, how many times do you have to keep telling yourself that? Must be a lot.

      You certainly won't ever get an apology from me and the fact that you have to involve yourself between me and someone else here, take my words out of context on purpose, and get so bitchy because someone doesnt share your viewpoints about this arc just goes to show how pathetic and childish you are. The fact that you had to "learn how to be mature" from Harry Potter of all things proves it. Your parents must have been awful role models and I wouldn't be surprised.

      It must take a lot of work to keep yourself in that little fantasy world of yours. Come back to reality and the world of facts any time though.
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    • TMNTInsighter wrote:

      Asfaloth12 wrote:

      </p>

       Can't say I blame them because, you know, they're right!

      If they were right, then they would be able to calmly offer an intelligent counter-argument, which they have utterly failed to do.  Instead they have to resort to tantrums and insults.  This suggests that they do not have an intelligent counter-argument, and they realize it deep down.   


      And I'm sorry for the overreaction last time Easol,

      It's good that you're apologizing to Easol.  You certainly owe them one. Yes, it was an overreaction, and it needs to stop.  

      but there is no way that this

      </p><p><b>the fact that I've had to spend a lot of time here and elsewhere stating how it's not so bad is a real damper </b>

      </p><p>((Plays the worlds tiniest violin))  Newsflash:  People are going to dislike things that you like.  Realizing this is a part of growing up.  It's something I realized with Harry Potter.  I was much happier once I learned this and matured :)


      </p><p>I'm so glad this isn't canon.  It would have been an insult to Leo's true character  :)

      </p>


      </div>

      Honestly, how many times do you have to keep telling yourself that? Must be a lot.

      The fact that you have to involve yourself between me and someone else here, take my words out of context on purpose, and get so bitchy because someone doesnt share your viewpoints about this arc just goes to show how pathetic and childish you are. The fact that you had to "learn how to be mature" from Harry Potter of all things proves it. Your parents must have been awful role models and I wouldn't be surprised.

      It must take a lot of work to keep yourself in that little fantasy world of yours. Come back to reality and the world of facts any time though.

      Oh, geez....is this STILL going on?

      Look, you can accept it as canon if you want. That's your deal. But that doesn't mean others have to accept it if they don't want to.

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    • TMNTInsighter
      TMNTInsighter removed this reply because:
      Bad formatting via phone.
      23:53, February 13, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • TMNT Insighter

      Thank you for proving my point :)

      Honestly, how many times do you have to keep telling yourself that? Must be a lot.

      Yes, Easol and I do have to keep telling you this a lot :)  If you want to view it as the "true" ending, that's fine.  We've told you that  repeatedly, as well. The problem is that you clearly want to force others to accept it as "canon" when it's officially not, and when it makes no logical sense. 

      The fact that you have to involve yourself between me and someone else here, take my words out of context on purpose, and get so bitchy because someone doesnt share your viewpoints about this arc just goes to show how pathetic and childish you are. 

      1) I have a right to participate in this discussion, whether you like it or not.  If you don't want to discuss this with me, then you are welcome to excuse yourself from this thread.   You don't get to control how the rest of us think or what we do. I suggest you come to terms with that.   

      2)  Got any examples of "taking words out of context"?  I won't be holding my breath. 

      3)  Ah, more insults instead of intelligent counter-arguments.  With misogyny mixed in.  Along with projection;  you are the only one here who has now repeatedly thrown out insults when people dare to disagree with you. I will interpret this to mean that you have no counter-arguments to offer.  Thus, I graciously accept your concession of defeat :)

      The fact that you had to "learn how to be mature" from Harry Potter of all things proves it

      Harry Potter is totally  awesome.  You could learn a lot from it. 

      Oooh, and now you're insulting my parents.  This is getting good;  I must have hit quite a nerve :)

      It must take a lot of work to keep yourself in that little fantasy world of yours. Come back to reality and the world of facts any time though.

      You realize we're discussing a fantasy cartoon, right?     I find it interesting that you talk about "reality" and "facts", while blatantly ignoring them.  

      By the way, you seem to be having difficulty with the formatting :)

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    • Wingnut II wrote:

      Oh, geez....is this STILL going on?

      Look, you can accept it as canon if you want. That's your deal. But that doesn't mean others have to accept it if they don't want to.

      Canon vs non-canon aside, these episodes aren’t as bad as people think! That’s the point of this! While it’s nice to have a rational voice here for a change (at least for the most part) such as yourself Wingnut, this is a forum and forums are meant for conversations like that. Unfortunately Asfaloth is a bully who can’t seem to stand someone who doesn’t bow down and kiss his/her ass all the time and Easol isn’t far behind and I can’t stand those kinds of people—as I’m sure most wouldn’t either! That is the problem here!

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    • Wingnut II

      That's right.  People can view it how they want, as long as they respect the rights of others to view it differently.  There's nothing wrong with debate and discussion, as long as it doesn't degrade into insults and personal attacks.

      Yes, Raph needs to take a break from fanfiction.   He should return to it later, though.  Practice makes perfect after all.   Leo would argue that he needs to a fanart break as well.   He still hasn't gotten over "Nipplehead"   ;)

      [...]this is a forum and forums are meant for conversations like that.

      Precisely.  It's meant for conversations.  Not tantrums and insults. 

      Unfortunately Asfaloth is a bully who can’t seem to stand someone who doesn’t bow down and kiss his/her ass all the time and Easol isn’t far behind and I can’t stand those kinds of people!

      ((once again pulls out the world's tiniest violin)) My heart aches for you.  Truly, it does.  *snort*

      So, let's see.......you offer only more insults and personal attacks......and still no counter-arguments.   People are not required to like the non-canon Mutant Apocalypse arc.  Tantrums and insults aren't going to magically change that.  If you want to view it as the "true" ending, that's fine.  But, it's ridiculous to expect everybody else to do so when it makes no sense.   A word of advice:   If you wish to discuss this arc, then do so politely,  and respect our right to disagree with you (instead of throwing a tantrum).  If you have nothing more to offer than insults (none of which are very original by the way;  show a little more creativity, for goodness sake), then you are not going to have a very productive discussion.  We are all TMNT fans here.  This is supposed to be fun. (Well, I'm having fun, anyway)

      Thank you for the evening entertainment.  Oh, and the correct pronoun is her ;)

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    • Asfaloth12 wrote:

      Wingnut II

      That's right.  People can view it how they want, as long as they respect the rights of others to view it differently.  There's nothing wrong with debate and discussion, as long as it doesn't degrade into insults and personal attacks.

      Yes, Raph needs to take a break from fanfiction.   He should return to it later, though.  Practice makes perfect after all.   Leo would argue that he needs to a fanart break as well.   He still hasn't gotten over "Nipplehead"   ;)

      [...]this is a forum and forums are meant for conversations like that.

      Precisely.  It's meant for conversations.  Not tantrums and insults. 

      Unfortunately Asfaloth is a bully who can’t seem to stand someone who doesn’t bow down and kiss his/her ass all the time and Easol isn’t far behind and I can’t stand those kinds of people!

      ((once again pulls out the world's tiniest violin)) My heart aches for you.  Truly, it does.  *snort*

      So, let's see.......you offer only more insults and personal attacks......and still no counter-arguments.   People are not required to like the non-canon Mutant Apocalypse arc.  Tantrums and insults aren't going to magically change that.  If you want to view it as the "true" ending, that's fine.  But, it's ridiculous to expect everybody else to do so when it makes no sense.   A word of advice:   If you wish to discuss this arc, then do so politely,  and respect our right to disagree with you (instead of throwing a tantrum).  If you have nothing more to offer than insults (none of which are very original by the way;  show a little more creativity, for goodness sake), then you are not going to have a very productive discussion.  We are all TMNT fans here.  This is supposed to be fun. (Well, I'm having fun, anyway)

      Thank you for the evening entertainment.  Oh, and the correct pronoun is her ;)

      Heh-heh. World's smallest violin. Just like Mr. Krabs.

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    • The end of the arc is mostly summed up like this:

      Nipplehead: I'm glad we're all together again.

      Mira: Didn't you travel around murdering people for the past 50 years?

      Nipplehead *completely ignoring Mira*: Like I said, I'm glad we're all together again.

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    • Yep, that's pretty much it.

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    • I knew I got something right in there.

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    • Wingnut II wrote:
      The end of the arc is mostly summed up like this:

      Nipplehead: I'm glad we're all together again.

      Mira: Didn't you travel around murdering people for the past 50 years?

      Nipplehead *completely ignoring Mira*: Like I said, I'm glad we're all together again.

      .....That.....is actually quite accurate.  Wow.  You hit the nail right on the head. 

      Seriously, though, shouldn't Mira have been a little more disturbed about travelling around with the Nipplehead formerly known as Maximus Kong?  And we're actually supposed to believe that this was Leo?   You know, the turtle who blames himself every time something goes wrong and carries the weight of the world on his shoulders?  Umm....no.

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    • Asfaloth12 wrote:
      Wingnut II wrote:
      The end of the arc is mostly summed up like this:

      Nipplehead: I'm glad we're all together again.

      Mira: Didn't you travel around murdering people for the past 50 years?

      Nipplehead *completely ignoring Mira*: Like I said, I'm glad we're all together again.

      .....That.....is actually quite accurate.  Wow.  You hit the nail right on the head. 

      Seriously, though, shouldn't Mira have been a little more disturbed about travelling around with the Nipplehead formerly known as Maximus Kong?  And we're actually supposed to believe that this was Leo?   You know, the turtle who blames himself every time something goes wrong and carries the weight of the world on his shoulders?  Umm....no.

      My sentiments exactly. Had this been the actual Leo, the full force of his actions would've hit him all at once, and he would be wracked with guilt. But it's not, he isn't, and well, here we are.

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    • Hey, look, I know it's been 8 days now and I don't want to start another flame war but what's our conclusion here? Do we agree that "End Times" was the final episode or did the "Mutant Apocalypse" really happen?

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    • Brandon Auman said that it was up to the audience to decide whether it was canon or AU, and that it could be seen as an AU.

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    • Fishface405 wrote:
      Hey, look, I know it's been 8 days now and I don't want to start another flame war but what's our conclusion here? Do we agree that "End Times" was the final episode or did the "Mutant Apocalypse" really happen?

      My two cents:     I agree with you regarding End Times as the ending of the main storyline.  Not sure what I'll end my series re-watch on, though....either Lone Rat and Cubs or When Worlds Collide ( I suppose the order of the different story arcs after Kavaxas doesn't really matter). Re: Mutant Apocalypse and whether it really happened.  No;  at least not in the canon timeline.  It simply does not fit or make any logical sense.  In an alternate dimension/reality (or Raph's self-insert Mad Max fanfic)?  Sure.

      Easol1:  I was very pleasantly surprised by that. Good for him acknowledging that we have the right to think for ourselves :)

      Wingnut II, Agreed

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    • Fishface405 wrote:
      Hey, look, I know it's been 8 days now and I don't want to start another flame war but what's our conclusion here? Do we agree that "End Times" was the final episode or did the "Mutant Apocalypse" really happen?

      "End Times" should've been the final episode of S4, and I don't even like it or the Kavaxas arc. And after all the evidence I've stated about MA (enough to do a Top 10 list), which I'll do one more time for fun: Nickelodeon sucking at scheduling since "Parasitica", production order, the fact that none of the other arcs are considered non-cannon (certainly the Kavaxas arc of course), Ciro Nieli's confirmation, no in-episode evidence to indicate non-canon or AU (unlike in past TMNT episodes dealing with stuff like it), the fact that the future isn't written in stone, the Chompy flashbacks straight out of S4, it was approved and aired--hopefully the editors here will get to work on that episode's page right away.

      Anyway, back to the point I made with Wingnut's post earlier (I hope you're reading); with regards to canon vs. non-canon, it kind of does matter if something is officially considered canon or not because it opens a dangerous door, which the MA detractors are trying to do, that could allow people like them to sway, even bully studios and/or artists into making a project suddenly unofficial. As an entertainment fan, I always want what I want and if it's bad then screw the guys who made it, but where does something like this end? Where would the line between viewer and creator begin to disappear? To me, this is a lot like the Indoctrination Theory that came out when fans and players became so irate at the ending of the original Mass Effect trilogy that they tried to push their own ending on the studio. As much as I didn't like it myself, I still commend them for not caving. This is basically the same thing except the detractors are mostly using the word of some guy on Twitter (whose real name we don't even know) claiming to represent Nickelodeon to claim that the studio caved and push this on the rest of the fanbase. Again, where does it end? Are we suddenly going to say that the final season of "Samurai Jack" isn't canon b/c it never involved Jack fulfilling the Guardian's prophecy? Is Bioware/EA suddenly going to accept the Indoctrination Theory in the wake of ME:Andromeda's failure so they can have the "Mass Effect" series bringing in cash again? As far as I'm concerned, this whole controversy and 'movement' by quite a bit of the fanbase is a low for this franchise. So you'll have to excuse me Wingnut, and others, for not taking the word of some guy on Twitter who wants me to believe a fight with the Technodrome happened AFTER an apocalypse whose name I don't even know BTW, nor the advice of someone who admittedly learned "maturity" from the 'Harry Potter' books. 

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    • ....Sorry guys.  I just bought some marshmallows that badly need toasting. 

      No in-episode evidence to indicate non-canon or AU

      Other than the fact that the world is a post-apocalyptic wasteland....which massively contradicts Renet's description of the future she comes from, and prevents the arc from fitting into the canon timeline.  Ignoring that fact is not going to make it less true.

      ,[..} the fact that the future isn't written in stone, the Chompy flashbacks straight out of S4, it was approved and aired--hopefully the editors here will get to work on that episode's page right away. [..]

      Tale of the Yokai says otherwise.  I would recommend watching that episode; it's a pretty good one.  Chompy can certainly exist in an AU.  There's no reason why he can't.   Why wouldn't Raph include him in his self-insert Mad Max fanfic?  I'm not sure what work needs to be done on the episode page;  the editors have already done a fine job with accuracy :)

      [..] with regards to canon vs. non-canon, it kind of does matter if something is officially considered canon or not because it opens a dangerous door, [..]

      How in the world is is it "dangerous" for people to think for themselves? 

      This is basically the same thing except the detractors are mostly using the word of some guy on Twitter (whose real name we don't even know) claiming to represent Nickelodeon to claim that the studio caved and push this on the rest of the fanbase [..]

      It's the official TMNT twitter, not "some guy".  Easol1 already discussed this with you in one of their comments; I suggest you go back and review their comments.   Then, there's Brandon Auman, one of the writers, who recently admitted that MA is up to audience intepretation.  I've gained new respect for him after that. The only "pushing" I've seen has been from fans of the arc throwing tantrums when people choose to logically treat the arc as an AU.   If you don't want to continue hearing about it, then respect our right to treat it as an AU and move on with your life.  Nobody has told you that you can't accept it as the "true" ending.  The more you try to force people to accept it as "canon" (when it's officially not, and when it doesn't make any sense), the more pushback you're going to get.

      As far as I'm concerned, this whole controversy and 'movement' by quite a bit of the fanbase is a low for this franchise

      Agreed.  It's ridiculous that fans are getting bullied for daring to treat the arc as an AU.  How dare we think for ourselves and use simple logic?  What's next?  Dogs and cats living together?


      nor the advice of someone who admittedly learned "maturity" from the 'Harry Potter' books. 

      Well, good for them!  They certainly have great taste in literature.  It's wonderful when people can be inspired by a book to grow and change in a positive way.  Sounds like a book that you desperately need to read :)

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    • Would you PLEASE stop bringing up that one lone continuity error from Samurai Jack as if it vindicates MA? And the official social media representative for Nick, as if he weren't the TMNT mouthpiece of the company, and as if that were the ONLY sign from Nick that it's non-canon (which it isn't, coughpressreleasecough)? Or claiming that any classification of MA as AU is just the studio or individuals "caving" to pressure and should be ignored, rather than the very real possibility that they changed their minds (which is supported by the change in schedule)?

      Especially since, as I said, former executive producer Brandon Auman has clarified that it can be seen as AU and that it is up to the audience whether it is. That is a secondary official source after Nick itself. That means it's just as valid to see it as AU as not, sez one of the executive producers of the show. 

      And no, it's not a low for the franchise or "dangerous." It's quite heartening to see people not just blindly accepting what is shoveled out to them simply because authority figures (or other fans) tell them to.

      It's not dangerous. Why? Because the TMNT franchise has had material declared non-canon before. The Guest Era, the Image comics - released officially, later declared non-canon by those who had the right to because they changed their minds. 

      Here's a bad precedent: people making inferior material that devalues the entire series and does not work with the preceding material, simply as an attempt to torch the franchise and run. I don't like it when fans AND the material are treated dismissively by such people, and I don't like seeing art used to pettily punish. 

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    • Also, consider the mess this whole episode placement has turned into. There are THREE different orders when you look at production order, airdate, and DVD. 

      Production order goes as: Kavaxas arc, Halloween, Lone Rat and Cub, When Worlds Collide, Wanted: Bebop and Rocksteady, The Usagi Trilogy, Mutant Apocalypse

      Airdate: Kavaxas, WWC, Usagi, LR&C, MA, Halloween, W: B&R

      DVD: Kavaxas (the one thing they can all agree on), W: B&R, LR&C, MA, Halloween, WWC, Usagi

      Production order still makes the most sense as far as I'm concerned.



      P.S. When do you guys ever sleep? Just wondering...

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    • Dang it. All I wanted was a clear answer but instead we got another flame war going on.

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    • Fishface405 wrote:
      Dang it. All I wanted was a clear answer but instead we got another flame war going on.

      You got one! Auman's response that the canonicity of it is up to the audience. :)

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    • Everyone? Maybe we all need to take a break, kay? Focus on the upcoming stuff, like Rise of the TMNT! Speaking of which, I'm plotting out a TMNT series that's like the SatAM to Rise's AoStH. Stay tuned for further updates!

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    • Yeah, I think Wingnut II is right. This debate's been going on for months now.

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    • I'm fine with a break.

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    • Wingnut II wrote:
      Everyone? Maybe we all need to take a break, kay? Focus on the upcoming stuff, like Rise of the TMNT! Speaking of which, I'm plotting out a TMNT series that's like the SatAM to Rise's AoStH. Stay tuned for further updates

      Sounds good to me.  It's been amusing at times.  Admittedly, this polished turd is not worthy of the time that has been spent on it, though I have thoroughly enjoyed mocking it.  One important thing to remember from this: Think for yourself.  I joyfully remain in the AU camp, and I consider End Times the ending of the main canon storyline.    *passes around marshmallows*

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    • Asfaloth12 wrote:
      Wingnut II wrote:
      Everyone? Maybe we all need to take a break, kay? Focus on the upcoming stuff, like Rise of the TMNT! Speaking of which, I'm plotting out a TMNT series that's like the SatAM to Rise's AoStH. Stay tuned for further updates
      Sounds good to me.  It's been amusing at times.  Admittedly, this polished turd is not worthy of the time that has been spent on it, though I have thoroughly enjoyed mocking it.  One important thing to remember from this: Think for yourself.  I joyfully remain in the AU camp, and I consider End Times the ending of the main canon storyline.    *passes around marshmallows*

      Ooh, marshmallows!! *chewing noisily*

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    • Easol1 wrote:
      I'm fine with a break.

      Awesome!!

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    • Fishface405 wrote:
      Yeah, I think Wingnut II is right. This debate's been going on for months now.

      Awesome!

      Righteous!!

      Bossanova!!!



      Um...Chevy Nova?

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    • pretty sure the mutant apocolypse is in an alternate timeline, right back in season one, remeber how xever and chris bradford origanly mutated? the mutant apocolypse must of happened when the turtles couldn't stop the bomb on time! there, problem solved!

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    • Lightnitrix wrote:
      pretty sure the mutant apocolypse is in an alternate timeline, right back in season one, remeber how xever and chris bradford origanly mutated? the mutant apocolypse must of happened when the turtles couldn't stop the bomb on time! there, problem solved!

      Perhaps...but if that was the case, Raph wouldn't know who Chompy was.

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    • KaijuHero wrote:
      It doesn't make sense Renet said the turtles were legends and were heros of her timeline. Yet there are no Humans at all. So how can renet and lord simultaneos exist if the apocalyspe left the world ravaged.

      Alternate universe that must've somehow been prevented if Renet is still around

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    • Icequeen NinjaWarrior wrote:
      KaijuHero wrote:
      It doesn't make sense Renet said the turtles were legends and were heros of her timeline. Yet there are no Humans at all. So how can renet and lord simultaneos exist if the apocalyspe left the world ravaged.
      Alternate universe that must've somehow been prevented if Renet is still around

      I agree with it being an Alternate Universe....that's the only logical explanation for it.

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    • A FANDOM user
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