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  • If you have thoughts on The Arena of Carnage, write it here.

    I know this is normally Julien's thing, but I just had to start this discussion ASAP. I can't contain my hype for this one and the next, just based on the title.

    My thoughts are:

    The turtles, April, Casey, and Fugitoid are captured by the Triceratons and are forced to fight gladitory battles in a horrifying arena against other alien captives as entertainment for the Triceraton Emperor. The Fugitoid is dismembered and forced to watch the teens suffer unless he creates powerful weaponry technology for them. However, in the teen heroes' captivity, they make an unlikely ally who may possess the key to defeating the Triceratons once and for all! Meanwhile, Raphael manages to escape and tries to use the Ulixes to contact the Salamandrians and Utroms for help.

    Debuts: Zanramon and Traximus

    Returning: Newtralizer, Zog, Mozar, Bishop, Mona Lisa, and Sal Commander

    Minor: Various new alien species'. As well as numerous Triceratons, Salamandrians, and Utroms

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    • Of course it is my thing. But it's okay to do that.

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    • Sorry bro. Just couldn't help myself. XD

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    • UltimateTitan6 wrote:
      Sorry bro. Just couldn't help myself. XD

      It's alright. And I can't wait to see that happen.

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    • Yeah, me neither. Especially based on the title, I expect this one to somewhat similar to Turtles in Space - Part 4: The Arena. If it is, that would be SO AWESOME!!! That name alone gives me some hints that we will FINALLY get Traximus in this show. In the 2003 series,Traximus is a gladiater who constantly fought in arenas, and usually, they are full of carnage xD. Man I really hope my idea is correct. It would be the perfect introduction to my main Triceraton Traximus helping out the turtles. I would also be cool to see Mona Lisa and Bishop to come back to help them in this one too.

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    • TRAXIMUS!!!

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    • BlazeinBoots wrote:
      TRAXIMUS!!!

      I KNOW!!! But we don't have any confirmation yet, unfortunately. Still, I can just feel in my bones that Traximus will make his debut in this ​episode. Everything at the current moment in the season suggests it. The Triceratons have barely been seen since Annihilation Earth, and they're supposed to be the central villains of this season. I feel like this one will definitely focus on the turtles stopping them. And I honestly have no idea how/where in the space ark that they can possibly go with this episode that does not involve the Triceratons' arena, which is how Traximus was originally introduced. I would be extremely upset if the writers picked this​ specific time in the series and this title for the episode and not introduce Traximus in it. Even though I have nothing but logic to go on, I'm calling it. Traximus is debuting in this episode!

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    • YES! WE HAVE A PLOT, PEOPLE! And so far, it supports my theory.

      "The Turtles are captured and thrown into the Triceraton Arena!"

      This is the official plot, guys. I called that if nothing else, and I'm still calling Traximus's debut.

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    • UltimateTitan6 wrote:
      YES! WE HAVE A PLOT, PEOPLE! And so far, it supports my theory.

      "The Turtles are captured and thrown into the Triceraton Arena!"

      This is the official plot, guys. I called that if nothing else, and I'm still calling Traximus's debut.

      God, I hope that we get Traximus! He's an awesome character! But will his background be part of the 'Triceraton All-Stars'? Or something else entirely...?

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    • If they bring Traximus onto 2K12, and if anyone over 15 and not already shipping Raph×Slash is still even watching this series (and not also crackpairing Raph with that Salamandrian he allegedly speed-dated), all the Raph×Trax fanboys and fangirls will be pissed if Raph and Trax don't have at least as much chemistry and closeness as they did in the 2K3 series.

      Though it could be worse: It could be Leo and Usagi meeting each other and not seeming destined to become soulmates, and then the legions of angry Leosagi fangirls would rally with torches and pitchforks demanding Nieli be hurled into a volcano as a divine sacrifice to the gods Peter Laird The Venerable and Stan Sakai The Learned.

      Though come to think of it, I think the Knights of the First Order of Ramona already rented a volcano and nearly succeeded at sacrificing Nieli to their god Fred Wolf The Kitschy, until Nieli finally agreed to their demands.

      (The preceding was a humor post.)

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    • Did you also forget the other Triceratons like Mozar and Zog?

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    • Julian14bernardino wrote:
      Did you also forget the other Triceratons like Mozar and Zog?

      Oh yeah, I forgot to put them as "returning". I'll fix that now.

      Well sure, I definitely expect Mozar to be in every Triceraton based episode. I see him as, sort of, their representative. But in this one, I think he will probably be the one operating the arena for the emperor's entertainment.

      As for Zog, I definitely expect him to appear again later this season, but it's kind of hard for me to see how they would fit him into this specific episode. Unless they basically make him serve the role Traximus did in Turtles in Space - Part 4: The Arena, which now that I think about it I can totally see them doing and I DON'T LIKE IT! I really hope they don't do that! TRAXIMUS DESERVES SOME SPOTLIGHT!

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    • Since the turtles failed to get the black hole generator fragment, they should try to infiltrate the Triceratons' mother ship to go get it until they're in the Triceratons arena.

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    • That's exactly what I'm expecting to happen in this episode.😄

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    • Usagi! Usagi! Usagi! Please please please please!

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    • MiwandSplinterfan1 wrote: Usagi! Usagi! Usagi! Please please please please!

      Not going to happen without Peter Laird's involvement.

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    • Gilgameshkun wrote:

      MiwandSplinterfan1 wrote: Usagi! Usagi! Usagi! Please please please please!

      Not going to happen without Peter Laird's involvement.

      What's his number?! lol

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    • It's not that simple. Peter Laird and Stan Sakai are good friends, and they only collaborated as friends. Peter Laird's involvement in 2K12 has been zero, and he's been clear that the production doesn't even keep him in the loop.

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    • Gilgameshkun wrote:
      It's not that simple. Peter Laird and Stan Sakai are good friends, and they only collaborated as friends. Peter Laird's involvement in 2K12 has been zero, and he's been clear that the production doesn't even keep him in the loop.

      Then again who do they keep in the loop? XD

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    • Do you think there's any slight chance we might see the Domio (probably spelled it wrong) and/or his son? And the weird guy with the paddle and he floats?

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    • Well, since Viacom (Nickelodeon's parent company) now owns all the rights to TMNT, they have no more obligations to Eastman or Laird whatsoever. Eastman is still involved—as a main writer for the IDW comic series and as the voice of Ice Cream Kitty—but he's strictly an employee now. He answers to Nick, but Nick doesn't answer to him, and Nick as the property owner has occasionally overruled some of Eastman's writing decisions for IDW. Laird's sale of TMNT to Viacom allowed Laird to continue to publish up to 18 new Mirage TMNT comic books a year, but he's since opted instead to wind down the business and gradually shut down Mirage. Laird and Nick are much like George Lucas and Disney are now—they acknowledge each other through "created by Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird" and "copyright Viacom" credits, but they don't have an actual working relationship.

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    • Well after all, Season 4 is about trying to protect the Earth from the Triceratons / getting the black hole generator fragments and saving Master Splinter, there will be more Triceraton episodes, Utrom episodes and I was wondering about April holding a small piece of Soul Star, there should be an episode about it. It could be similar to Leo watching the egg in Parasitica.

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    • Julian14bernardino wrote: Well after all, Season 4 is about trying to protect the Earth from the Triceratons / getting the black hole generator fragments and saving Master Splinter, there will be more Triceraton episodes, Utrom episodes and I was wondering about April holding a small piece of Soul Star, there should be an episode about it. It could be similar to Leo watching the egg in Parasitica.

      I kind of had something different in mind. I don't really expect April to be technically "brainwashed". I kind of expect her to know everything but is corrupted by an overdose of pure power. Kind of like Dark Phoenix from the Marvel universe. Not gonna lie, I always imagined it. Yoshimickster just reconjured my memory about it when he mentioned it on the Riddle of The Ancient Aeons thread.

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    • Gilgameshkun wrote:
      Well, since Viacom (Nickelodeon's parent company) now owns all the rights to TMNT, they have no more obligations to Eastman or Laird whatsoever. Eastman is still involved—as a main writer for the IDW comic series and as the voice of Ice Cream Kitty—but he's strictly an employee now. He answers to Nick, but Nick doesn't answer to him, and Nick as the property owner has occasionally overruled some of Eastman's writing decisions for IDW. Laird's sale of TMNT to Viacom allowed Laird to continue to publish up to 18 new Mirage TMNT comic books a year, but he's since opted instead to wind down the business and gradually shut down Mirage. Laird and Nick are much like George Lucas and Disney are now—they acknowledge each other through "created by Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird" and "copyright Viacom" credits, but they don't have an actual working relationship.

      Here's a doosie. Do you know who has the rights to the neutrinos? As in the three teenagers from Dimension X, not the clay monster people. Just sayin', they are so totally awesome but soooooo underused, its soooo sad :'(

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    • Read the IDW comics. The Neutrinos were given a much, much better role. And the three teenager characters in particular, were reimagined as hardened soldiers. In this continuity, the Neutrinos have been fighting a bloody war with the warlord General Krang.

      Neutrinos-looking-like-theyre-straight-out-of-dbz

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    • Gilgameshkun wrote:
      Read the IDW comics. The Neutrinos were given a much, much better role. And the three teenager characters in particular, were reimagined as hardened soldiers. In this continuity, the Neutrinos have been fighting a bloody war with the warlord General Krang.

      Neutrinos-looking-like-theyre-straight-out-of-dbz

      Do you think there's ANY chance we might see them in this series?

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    • Heck no. At least not these badasses. We already know what the Neutrinos for this series look like. If anything, we might see a small appearance of the 1987 series' version of them (who are not nearly as cool as IDW) in the 2012/1987 tutles crossover that's coming up.

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    • Maybe I should start calling it 1987itis or Fred Wolf malaise—an inability to move past the 1987 TV series' kitschier baggage. IDW doesn't really suffer from this, because it often draws from old ideas and reimagines them in a much better way, with genuinely good plot, writing and character development. But 2K12 has this bad, and a series that was once relatively new and different is becoming more and more shackled to 1987 in all the lamest-ass ways possible.

      25 years from now, if TMNT fans are still demanding a return to the poor taste favored by 1987 and increasingly by 2K12, then heaven help us all. 2K12, we know you've been able to do much better than this before.

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    • UltimateTitan6 wrote:

      Julian14bernardino wrote: Well after all, Season 4 is about trying to protect the Earth from the Triceratons / getting the black hole generator fragments and saving Master Splinter, there will be more Triceraton episodes, Utrom episodes and I was wondering about April holding a small piece of Soul Star, there should be an episode about it. It could be similar to Leo watching the egg in Parasitica.

      I kind of had something different in mind. I don't really expect April to be technically "brainwashed". I kind of expect her to know everything but is corrupted by an overdose of pure power. Kind of like Dark Phoenix from the Marvel universe. Not gonna lie, I always imagined it. Yoshimickster just reconjured my memory about it when he mentioned it on the Riddle of The Ancient Aeons thread.

      But at the end of Riddle of the Ancient Aeons Donnie said anyone could be corrupted by power so there could be a foreshadowing of a possessed April.

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    • UltimateTitan6 wrote:
      Heck no. At least not these badasses. We already know what the Neutrinos for this series look like. If anything, we might see a small appearance of the 1987 series' version of them (who are not nearly as cool as IDW) in the 2012/1987 tutles crossover that's coming up.

      oooo when?!!!!

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    • Don't know exactly. It's supposed to be part of the space arc so we should see it very soon, so don't worry 😄

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    • MiwandSplinterfan1 wrote:
      UltimateTitan6 wrote:
      Heck no. At least not these badasses. We already know what the Neutrinos for this series look like. If anything, we might see a small appearance of the 1987 series' version of them (who are not nearly as cool as IDW) in the 2012/1987 tutles crossover that's coming up.
      oooo when?!!!!

      I know that it's IMDb, but as far as I've notice, it hasn't been wrong... It said that the crossover will be the 10th episode of season 4 (which is probably gonna be around late February/ early March). So, hopefully it's then! XD

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    • Julian14bernardino wrote:
      UltimateTitan6 wrote:

      Julian14bernardino wrote: Well after all, Season 4 is about trying to protect the Earth from the Triceratons / getting the black hole generator fragments and saving Master Splinter, there will be more Triceraton episodes, Utrom episodes and I was wondering about April holding a small piece of Soul Star, there should be an episode about it. It could be similar to Leo watching the egg in Parasitica.

      I kind of had something different in mind. I don't really expect April to be technically "brainwashed". I kind of expect her to know everything but is corrupted by an overdose of pure power. Kind of like Dark Phoenix from the Marvel universe. Not gonna lie, I always imagined it. Yoshimickster just reconjured my memory about it when he mentioned it on the Riddle of The Ancient Aeons thread.
      But at the end of Riddle of the Ancient Aeons Donnie said anyone could be corrupted by power so there could be a foreshadowing of a possessed April.


      Yes, but being "corrupted" doesn't necessarily mean that you are "possessed" by anything. Corruption is basically the overshadowing/clouding of one's conscience, which can radically alter the victim's thinking, motives, and actions. Causing them to basically switch sides from good to evil. In this state the victim is completely aware of what they are doing, and retains all of the knowledge/memories they had prior to corruption, but the negative or "evil" side of their subconscious dominates their normally dominant positive or "good" side and cause them to put their darkest thoughts into motion. This is usually the result of an excessive amount of absorption of way too much pure power, which I suspect April might do later on. Examples: Kevin Levin (Ben 10: Ultimate Alien), Kai (Lego Ninjago: Masters of Spinjutsu), Kimiko Tohomiko (Xiolin Showdown)

      IMG 1781-1-

      Kevin corrupted into Ultimate Kevin due to his excessive absorption of the Ultimatrix's power.

      IMG 1785-1-

      Kai corrupted by the Staff of Elements, which contains all elemental powers of the Spinjutsu masters.

      IMG 1786-1-

      Kimiko corrupted by the Yang Yo-Yo; A Shen Gong Wu that will leave the user's prominent side (good/evil) in the Ying Yang world unless it is used in tandem with the Ying Yo-Yo.


      For someone to be possessed, a separate telepathic or ghostly being has to take over the victim’s body completely. So it's basically like a separate being using the other's body as a puppet (metaphorically). After the possession ends, the victim usually doesn't remember what happened during the time period in which they were possessed. Oddly enough, Morro from Ninjago is the only example that comes to my mind. I know there's a TON more though.


      IMG 1789-1-
      IMG 1784-1-

      Lloyd, the Master of Power possessed by the ghost of Morro, the Master of Wind.

      IMG 1783-1-
      Personally, I can see April possibly falling in the corruption category later this season seeing how there is currently no separate possessing being as of yet to possess her. Aloso, sorry about the jumbled mess. I tried to organize it a little better but this just kind of ended up happening. I hope you get the gist of it though. :]
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    • Do you think that Traxumis will only be in Season 4 in the war of the Tricetons or will come back to help Mikey, Donnie, Raph, and Leo in other adventures.

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    • Sonicisawesome2448 wrote:
      Do you think that Traxumis will only be in Season 4 in the war of the Tricetons or will come back to help Mikey, Donnie, Raph, and Leo in other adventures.

      Not sure. Traximus might help the Turtles, April and Casey so they could get the black hole generator fragment.

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    • Sonicisawesome2448 wrote: Do you think that Traxumis will only be in Season 4 in the war of the Tricetons or will come back to help Mikey, Donnie, Raph, and Leo in other adventures.

      If he is portrayed anything like his 2003 incarnation, then yes. I can definitely see Traximus dropping in every now and then for important missions (such as this one no less). It's safe to say that Trax was one of the most reliable allies of the Turtles. He even had a very prominent presence in the Battle Nexus arc, which I am DYING to see in the 2012 series. He was the perfect balance of brute force and diplomacy. The turtles could use someone like that on occasion. Because of this, I think he may also try to end the Triceraton war against the Salamandrians and make peace with them, kind of like how he and Fugitoid did with the Federation in the 2003 series. I also expect to see more of Mona Lisa and Sal, who may be a little less trusting of Traximus because he is Triceraton. I kind of sense a Leatherhead/Bishop like relationship between Mona Lisa and Trax in which Mona initially attacks him because of her negative experiences with his species, not knowing that he is different than most others of his species and intends to help them. A turtle (Raphael most likely) convinced her to cooperate and they'll begin to trust each other and possibly end up being friends.

      BUT... we're still jumping the gun, here. There's no confirmation Traximus will even appear in this season. We'll just have to wait and see.

      ... Just letting you know I'm calling it though. 😏

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    • I agree with you all the way and I also do want to see a Battle Nexus arc in the 2012 series as well.

      It would be good for Raph to convince them to copperate since Traximus and Raph had a really good relationship in the 2003 series.

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    • I know, right? Raphael's previous friendship and Trax from 2K3 and current newfound romance with Mona Lisa in 2K12 intersecting would be so awesome. Seems like Mona Lisa and Traximus would be the perfect dynamic alien duo if they put aside their war to work as a team and trust each other. And Raphael would be the driving force in making that happen. And I would love to see them both as regular recurring characters, especially on important or interesting missions.

      and as for the Battle Nexus arc I can totally imagine both Traximus and Mona Lisa in the tournament if they make another Nexus arc in the 2012 series. Along with Splinter, the Turtles, April, Casey, Karai, Slash, Leatherhead, Newtralizer, Rahzar, and possibly Shredder.

      Do NOT think we are going to see Usagi without Peter Laird's involvement like Gil mentioned. However, I would be happy to see a 2012 version of Venus de Milo that doesn't suck in the Battle Nexus arc, which is now completely possible precisely because Laird has no involvement.

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    • Agreed, but what kind of missions would they be involved in

      I think that Shreeder might not be there considering in the Mirage and 2003 Shredder was already defeated at that time.It would be cool to see all of those characters along with new ones.

      I really hope we get to see him despite the odds. Since Karai is nowhere to be found as of now, Leo do need another person to hang out with a lot like the other turtles do.

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    • Yeah I guess the Shredder probably wouldn't be involved in it. BN would probably happen after his defeat like you said. But since you asked, and I feel like spitballing, I'll give you my ideas of how most of the future from here should play out.

      MY THOUGHTS AND SPECULATION IS BELOW!

      I feel like after this space arc, Bishop will be gravely injured by the Triceratons, the events will lead up to where we were in Annihilation Earth and Leo will kill Shredder seconds before he would've killed Splinter, Splinter stops the Black Hole Machine, the world is saved. The Utroms recover Shredder's remains and take Bishop into their care to heal. Traximus will finds something incriminating (for the Triceratons) about Zanramon, causing Mozar and Traximus to overthrow the emperor and make peace with the Salamandrians. Mona and Trax would recieve awards/honors from their species for helping to find peace with the enemy. Trax will be busy rekindling the greater good motives of the Triceraton Empire, but Mona Lisa may earn a vacation (and will drop most of the space armor for a lighter, sleeker outfit) and possibly stay with the turtles for a little while and help them in their ongoing search for Karai, fighting mutants and villains along the way. Fugitoid will either reside with the Turtles in their lair or find his own permanent base on earth to help find a way to separate the Kraang on earth and in Dimension X from the Hive Mind, converting them all to Utroms. Mona and Trax should return for that one.

      Of course next season will be mainly about Japan and ninja mystics etc. Venus De Milo will be the turtles' primary ally of that season, much like Fugitoid for this season. She will be played by Gwendoline Yeo. Major villain will be the ghost of the original/demonic Shredder. Who knows, maybe even Savanti Romero might have a cameo or something. Later in that season she will meet Karai and Mona Lisa, becoming good friends with them.

      After that is solved, the Utroms, in an attempt to heal Bishop, accidentally reincarnate Oroku Saki in the body of an Utrom and is called Ch'rell, the Utrom Shredder. He rebuilds both the Foot Clan and with his new Kraang telepathic powers, the Kraang Hive Mind. Plus, with his mutagen and mind control serum, he'll have a massive army of ninjas, mutants, aliens, and even brainwashed citizens in his new motive: World Domination.

      All of the turtles' allies will be needed for this one, including Karai, Venus, Mona, and Trax. Don't know how they'll beat him but they will somehow.

      After that THEN the Battle Nexus arc, hopefully including Trax, Mona, Karai, and Venus.

      Then a Fast Forward series (Renet and Fugitoid possibly involved with the time travel), where the turtles meet Cody Jones, Serling, and Starlee as their new allies, while Sh'Okanabo, Viral, Darius Dunn, and the Dark Turtles serve as major villains.

      After that, the turtles return home and have a final battle with the Shredder, hopefully in a Turtles Forever style with the 87 and 03 turtles.

      And that's all I got for now. All of that was off the top of my head. That would really complete all of my wishes for this show. So there's loads of possibilities for where this show can go. I just hope they can follow through with it. 😄

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    • That was amazing to read.

      In when the Shedder is revived as the Utrom Shredder, he should have a team up with the Utrom Shreeder from the 2003 series and both of them can go against all of the turtles from each series.

      The way that you describe the next season made it seem like Usagi will appear as in the 2003 series he is a samari and that works well with the ninja styles of Leo.

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    • Sonicisawesome2448 wrote: That was amazing to read.

      In when the Shedder is revived as the Utrom Shredder, he should have a team up with the Utrom Shreeder from the 2003 series and both of them can go against all of the turtles from each series.

      The way that you describe the next season made it seem like Usagi will appear as in the 2003 series he is a samari and that works well with the ninja styles of Leo.

      Thanks. I was just spitballing but it would be so awesome if all of that came true.

      And WOW that would be such an ultimate brawl. The two Utrom Shredders verses the twelve turtles from each series would be so awesome. Guess the 87 Shredder would get "shredded" too quickly.

      I didn't say all that much about next season. I was talking more about Venus in that segment. What did I say that gave you the idea that Usagi would appear. As much as I like him I kind of doubt it.

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    • 😳...Um...Yeah, Traximus is appearing in this episode. And... Zeno? Whoever that is.🤔
      Spasmosaur

      😳😨😰😱

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    • Tumblr o19r1eLdjd1uuxhjio1 500
      WHOHOO! YEAH BOY! TRAXIMUS IS COMING BACK! IT'S TIME TO CELEBRATE! COME ON, SHREDDER. DON'T BE SUCH A SAD SACK. GET OVER HERE AND DANCE WITH US DUDE! SHOW ME YOUR MOVES BRA! BOOYAKABUNGA!!!
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    • Not that I'm still watching the series or anything...but Traximus might add a third faction to the Raphael shipping wars.

      Traximus count me in

      I know plenty of fanboys who will be hugely pissed if there isn't at least as much Traphimus chemistry as there was in 2K3. (Also, if those fanboys are still watching at all. All my close TMNT fan friends have since dropped this show like a rock.)

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    • True. I could definitely imagine that. Raph and Trax had a great relationship in the 2003 series. Shell, I'd be kind of pissed if they don't have at least as much chemistry as before. I don't ship them though, because, well... you know who I ship. But still, Traximus is one of my top 10 favorite recurring characters in the 2003 series and I would LOVE to see him again in this one. But again, I'm getting ahead of myself because I still haven't seen Trax yet. WHY ARE THEY DOING THIS TO ME!?! JUST SHOW ME THE PROOF! STOP TEASING ME WITH COPY-PASTE CLIPS OF Turtles in Space - Part 4: The Arena!

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    • UltimateTitan6 wrote: 😳...Um...Yeah, Traximus is appearing in this episode. And... Zeno? Whoever that is.

      Where are you getting this info from?
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    • UltimateTitan6: Understood. Still, the production team for The Moon of Thalos 3 needs to be fired—on a rocket into the sun. :) </futurama>

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    • Dank wrote:

      UltimateTitan6 wrote: 😳...Um...Yeah, Traximus is appearing in this episode. And... Zeno? Whoever that is.

      Where are you getting this info from?

      I heard Leo mention a character named Zeno in the official clip. Hopefully it's some other alien and not someone who is supposed to be Traximus.

      Traximus on the other hand...still no confirmation yet. But I said that because at this point, if they don't introduce Traximus, they purposely misled the fans of the 2003 series' space arc. Everything we currently know about this episode suggests it to be the 2012 version of Turtles in Space - Part 4: The Arena, which introduced Traximus. The plot is exactly the same (The turtles are captured and thrown into the Triceraton Arena). And in the clip, we saw that the Triceraton Emperor released the same monster, with the same name, to fight against the same turtles, in the same arena, as the same episode of the 2003 series that introduced Traximus. In my opinion, there's no way that they'll take all the minor stuff from that episode and leave out the main character of it.

      So no confirmation yet, but I'm much more certain now than when I started this thread.

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    • But you have to remember the same thing happened in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles issue 6 (Mirage) and that didn't have Traximus in it.

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    • I got Usagi because you were talking about in Season 5, the turtles will go through Japan and things like that.

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    • Traxumis and Raph are good friends, they are not dating.

      I agree, this 2012 series has very little references to the 2003 series and tthe cases that it does, it happened in other versions of TMNT.

      The Zeno character that Leo mention may be an ally just like him.

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    • Dank wrote: But you have to remember the same thing happened in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles issue 6 (Mirage) and that didn't have Traximus in it.

      In that, the turtles fought against Triceratons, not the Spasmosaur. The monster was just shown fighting different aliens there. Although that's a minor difference, you can't say the same about the 2003 series episode. As far as we've seen, this upcoming episode has no differences from that old episode except the introduction of a new character named Zeno.

      Plus, Traximus was a prominent character since his introduction (which was long after that Mirage issue). I personally think that they wouldn't make another episode like this without Traximus. Unless they decide to focus on this new Zeno character who might just steal Trax's thunder if he isn't the new Traximus.

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    • Sonicisawesome2448 wrote: Traxumis and Raph are good friends, they are not dating.

      I agree, this 2012 series has very little references to the 2003 series and tthe cases that it does, it happened in other versions of TMNT.

      The Zeno character that Leo mention may be an ally just like him.

      I know they weren't dating. I was just saying that they had good chemistry as fighters and comrades, as well as being good friends.

      And THANK YOU! Glad someone gets it!

      I do believe Zeno will be a new space ally for the turtles. But if they just assign that new name to who should be Traximus, I don't care. I'm still calling him Traximus, AND I'm still going to say I called it too. BECAUSE I DID!

      And oh right, the Japanese thing. I loved Usagi in the 2003 series. Plus his hatred of ninja's but was hilarious. I think the best we can hope for in terms of Usagi is making another rabbit samurai with a different name, because he came from a separate franchise. But hey, Ciro and Brandon have worked miracles before. Shell, they brought back Mona Lisa after a 25 year drought of her. Anything's possible.😇

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    • That is what the other guy was saying.

      No problem I also thought I was the only person that relaized this.

      Well it make sense if he was a Triceton but he can also be another alien species,

      That was pretty funny how at the time of danger, Usagi had to ditch his samuri ways and go with the ninja ways with Leo. The only thing that we can do is hope that they can find a way.

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    • ...You've already heard most my complaints about this series and Nickelodeon's handling of the franchise and my dislike for the legacy of the 1987 TV series, and you don't need to hear them all again right now in every detail. *hears everyone breathe a collective sigh of relief* Now, on to Usagi:

      I'm thinking that at best they'll do something like what they did with the Terror Bears becoming the Dream Beavers to get around Palladium Books' copyrights. You won't see Usagi himself, but a new original character very similar to him and obviously hearkening to Usagi's personality—an expy, different enough so that Stan Sakai can't sue. Of course, even that's an optimistic scenario for Usagi fans.

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    • Gilgameshkun wrote: ...You've already heard most my complaints about this series and Nickelodeon's handling of the franchise and my dislike for the legacy of the 1987 TV series, and you don't need to hear them all again right now in every detail. *hears everyone breathe a collective sigh of relief* Now, on to Usagi:

      I'm thinking that at best they'll do something like what they did with the Terror Bears becoming the Dream Beavers to get around Palladium Books' copyrights. You won't see Usagi himself, but a new original character very similar to him and obviously hearkening to Usagi's personality—an expy, different enough so that Stan Sakai can't sue. Of course, even that's an optimistic scenario for Usagi fans.

      Well, yeah that's basically what I was saying too. You just articulating it more. And yes, I do believe that may be the closest we will ever come to seeing Usagi in TMNT 2012, or any other turtles related media for that matter because of that contract. Wow, still can't believe they did that.😳

      But like I said, anything is possible. Peter Laird doesn't own the rights to the Usagi Yojimbo series and Stan Sakai doesn't answer to him (although they may still be friends). So for all we know, if he likes the series enough, we just might see Usagi if the TMNT producers reach hard enough. Which is what they're apparently good at, as that's how they got some awesome voice actors. We have David Tennant, Ron Pearlman, Zelda Williams, Keith David, and now CHARLIE MURPHY!?! In TMNT!?! Um... WHAT!?!

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    • UltimateTitan6: I'm not sure it's appropriate to make Zeno a disambiguation of Traximus. The characters may ultimately be very similar and one based on the other. But until he's actually referred to as Traximus, he's still just at most an expy of Traximus, like how Ice Cream Kitty is not actually Klunk but an expy of Klunk, or how the Dream Beavers are not actually the Terror Bears but expies of the Terror Bears. However, expies within the same multiverse can have trivia bullets in their articles noting ones similarity to another.

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    • (sigh) I suppose you're technically right. But I still think it's apropriate enough for disambiguation. I watched the episode and he's literally the exact same character but with a different name. I feel like we should ask Trigger or another admin to decide. Is that ok?

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    • Trigger and The S, sure.

      You realize there are a variety of reasons they just didn't adapt Traximus directly.

      1. They could be taking a lot more liberties with this character, and wanted a clean new template.
      2. Traximus could belong to a writer and the rights to that character weren't part of the sale of TMNT to Viacom.
      3. Or, more likely, they avoided Traximus himself because his name was a blatant play on Maximus from the movie Gladiator—Tr(iceraton) + (M)aximus. The 2003 TV series made frequent use of pop culture references, but have you noticed the 2012 TV series makes practically zero direct pop culture references of any kind? At most it's always under a different name, and looks different, enough to legally constitute a parody. Probably a difference with Nickelodeon's legal department going to even greater lengths not to get too close on anyone else's properties or risk having to pay actual royalties or court expenses (now or later) for referencing them.

      So, it may very well be the case that Zeno is a reimagined version of the same character template as Traximus. But it's a different thing entirely to say he is Traximus. Traximus was a well-liked character in the 2003 TV series—if they went to the effort of completely avoiding that name, they almost surely had a reason for it.

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    • Those were my thoughts exactly. I was leaning more towards possible rights restrictions, but I suppose all of those are reasons are possible. I'm really surprised they didn't keep the name.

      MAN! I got so mad! Because Zeno was actually the perfect replica and moral representation of the 2003 version Traximus. He's like the exact same guy all around. Origin-wise, appearance-wise, and value-wise. Of course, there wasn't enough time in he episode to develop him properly, but hey, that's what happens when you try to fit a 5-part episode into one. But I'm sure this shouldn't be the last of him and he'll get his day to develop. After he said Zeno, I was praying second after second for him to say his real name is actually Traximus, but he didn't.

      BUT...when Mikey asked him what his name was, he didn't simply say "Zeno" or "my name is Zeno." He said "​They call me Zeno. So there's still hope. :]

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    • Zeno isn't a perfect replica. Traximus is much hunkier. :)

      Go ahead Traxy dig in

      2012 series Triceratons in general aren't that good-looking—one of my friends calls it "the ugly ray" that affects many of this series' mutants and aliens compared to many other versions of the same characters. I have to agree—as much as I liked Pete (2012 TV series) and I still like Pete (Amazing Adventures), neither of them are nearly as cute as Pete (IDW). It's because most 2012 character designs seem to like to emphasize grotesque ugly features, making most characters (including all the Triceratons) rather unsightly to look at.

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    • UltimateTitan6 wrote:Of course, there wasn't enough time in he episode to develop him properly, but hey, that's what happens when you try to fit a 5-part episode into one.
      They weren't trying to fit a 5-part episode into one. Like I said this was mainly based off of Mirage issue 6, and Turtles in Space, Part 4 was the only episode of the Turtles in Space arc Traximus appeared in. So at this point in the story Zeno hasn't gotten more episodes than Traximus had.
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    • Gilgameshkun wrote:
      Zeno isn't a perfect replica. Traximus is much hunkier. :)

      Go ahead Traxy dig in

      2012 series Triceratons in general aren't that good-looking—one of my friends calls it "the ugly ray" that affects many of this series' mutants and aliens compared to many other versions of the same characters. I have to agree—as much as I liked Pete (2012 TV series) and I still like Pete (Amazing Adventures), neither of them are nearly as cute as Pete (IDW). It's because most 2012 character designs seem to like to emphasize grotesque ugly features, making most characters (including all the Triceratons) rather unsightly to look at.

      Yeah I agree too. They don't put that much effort into making a mutant/alien character look appealing except the Turtles and Splinter (who are usually in our face every episode). My opinion is that they try to get in the more realistic qualities and on occasion what some people would call cool. Plus you know these guys like horror movies so I'd imagine they make the most freakish thing that comes to mind. The uglier the better for them. I think one glance at Lord Vringath Dregg says it all.                ​

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    • Dank wrote:

      UltimateTitan6 wrote:Of course, there wasn't enough time in he episode to develop him properly, but hey, that's what happens when you try to fit a 5-part episode into one.
      They weren't trying to fit a 5-part episode into one. Like I said this was mainly based off of Mirage issue 6, and Turtles in Space, Part 4 was the only episode of the Turtles in Space arc Traximus appeared in. So at this point in the story Zeno hasn't gotten more episodes than Traximus had.

      I wasn't just talking about Traximus when I said that. I also meant the little things, like how the turtles were trapped in a room with no oxygen and had to use Sendou jutsu to slow their bodily functions and go without oxygen for a long period of time, just like in Part 3 of Turtles in Space. They just focused more on the episode of  where Traximus debuted for this episode.

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    • Ok my thoughts:

      "BALLOONALITY" XD

      The inner breathing thingy just like the 2003 cartoon!!!!

      "Adolescent Warrior Terrapins" I see what you did there writers! 

      Fugitoid saying "Booyakasha" made my day because now all I can picture is David Tennant saying it and I'm giggling like a weirdo.

      Awesome episode, and now they finally have a piece of the Black Hole Generator!

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    • UltimateTitan6 wrote: Yeah I agree too. They don't put that much effort into making a mutant/alien character look appealing except the Turtles and Splinter (who are usually in our face every episode). My opinion is that they try to get in the more realistic qualities and on occasion what some people would call cool. Plus you know these guys like horror movies so I'd imagine they make the most freakish thing that comes to mind. The uglier the better for them. I think one glance at Lord Vringath Dregg says it all.

      I agree. Too much focus on the grotesque, and only a few mutant or alien characters look good. The turtles, Splinter, and maybe Bebop, Newtie and Slash. (One of my friends nicknamed Splinter "sexy rat dad," but stopped watching the show out of disgust soon before I did, and recently said, "I don't give a rat dad's ass about the Nick show." XD) Dogpound was ugly-cute, and Rahzar is just plain hideous. I adore Leatherhead, but in most scenes it's hard to tell his facial expressions, giving him a "dull surprise" look. And Rocksteady and the Triceratons hit too close to the uncanny valley. Fishface and Mondo Gecko are just so-so. Most of the rest are a parade of absolutely hideous—Mutagen Man, Stockman Fly, and especially Muckman. Napoleon looks like he's wearing a stool sample as a hat.

      TMNT characters needn't be puke-ugly, nor need they be diabetically cute. Mikey's face in particular is far too cute at times, to the point of caricaturizing him and hindering the audience's willingness to ever take him seriously.

      Mikey plays Dance Master

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    • Jadepalacetrainee wrote:
      Ok my thoughts:

      "BALLOONALITY" XD

      The inner breathing thingy just like the 2003 cartoon!!!!

      "Adolescent Warrior Terrapins" I see what you did there writers! 

      Fugitoid saying "Booyakasha" made my day because now all I can picture is David Tennant saying it and I'm giggling like a weirdo.

      Awesome episode, and now they finally have a piece of the Black Hole Generator!

      Same. But instead BALOONALITY, what really caught me was SHORYUKEN! lol Like seriously, hey referenced my secondary in Smash 4, who I still can't believe got in.

      And I loved the "Adolecent Alien Warrior Terrapins".

      ​"whispers" That's the Triceraton version of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

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    • Since discussion now will mainly be about reactions to the episode itself (and I'm not watching it), I'll withdraw a bit from this thread.

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    • Great episode, yes I'm annoyed they don't just call him Traximas as any logical thinking person would be, but whatevs the turts have a giant dino friend now! Like, bigger than normal dinos too! Also I LOVE Zanmaron's voice, who I THINK is Michael Ironside but I'm not sure.

      And I heavily disagree on the uglyness being bad, I have ALWAYS been a fan of the freaky mutations and monstrosities this show brings us, MORE uglyness, MORE I say! But hey, that's just me.

      And finally when the turtles did their meditation I was all SHELL YES-total geek out there.

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    • UltimateTitan6 wrote:
      Jadepalacetrainee wrote:
      Ok my thoughts:

      "BALLOONALITY" XD

      The inner breathing thingy just like the 2003 cartoon!!!!

      "Adolescent Warrior Terrapins" I see what you did there writers! 

      Fugitoid saying "Booyakasha" made my day because now all I can picture is David Tennant saying it and I'm giggling like a weirdo.

      Awesome episode, and now they finally have a piece of the Black Hole Generator!

      Same. But instead BALOONALITY, what really caught me was SHORYUKEN! lol Like seriously, hey referenced my secondary in Smash 4, who I still can't believe got in.

      And I loved the "Adolecent Alien Warrior Terrapins".

      ​"wispers" That's the Triceraton version of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

      • whispers back* I know, it was hilarious!
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    • Yoshimickster wrote:
      Great episode, yes I'm annoyed they don't just call him Traximas as any logical thinking person would be, but whatevs the turts have a giant dino friend now! Like, bigger than normal dinos too! Also I LOVE Zanmaron's voice, who I THINK is Michael Ironside but I'm not sure.

      And I heavily disagree on the uglyness being bad, I have ALWAYS been a fan of the freaky mutations and monstrosities this show brings us, MORE uglyness, MORE I say! But hey, that's just me.

      And finally when the turtles did their meditation I was all SHELL YES-total geek out there.

      TRUE...TRUE..TRUE!!!

      Did you see the size of Zeno? That dino dude is massive. He's like twice the size of other Triceratons. The turtles are little cockroaches to him. And he beat those other Triceratons pretty bad. I'm just happy they introduced Traximus, even if it's by another name.

      "cough cough" CALLED IT!

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    • Shell yeah ya did UT6, shell yeah.

      ALSO-Zeno flipping NEEDS an action figure, especially if it comes with that hammer with the frowny face on it, that's a great accessory in the making right there.

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    • Yeah, I can already picture Thor-level craze over that iron mallet xD

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    • If Zeno is just a likely expy of Traximus and not Traximus himself, it is worthy of a note on both pages' trivia sections as a matter of resemblance, but a Traximus disambiguation page that includes Zeno is unwarranted speculation. Disambiguation pages are for characters who share the same name, even if they're unrelated characters. See Ray and Fong for examples. Also see Klunk and notice that Ice Cream Kitty (Klunk's expy) is not one of the disambiguations.

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    • That was a good episode. I loved the opening part with those video game references, and Shredder being Shao Khan. Maybe they could do a goreless TMNT Mortal Kombat like game? Yeah, I am just kidding on that, but I liked how Shredder was Shao Khan.

      The rest was good. I did like Zeno here, and I also liked the breathing scene which was like the one from that episode of the 2003 cartoon. I wonder what will happen on the next episode?

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    • Anyone else find it interesting how Emperor Zanramon looks...well actually imposing? In the comics he was just some fat-cat, in the 03 show he was a whiney invader dude, in this-BAM-Darkseid. Adaptations are weird. Either way, I can't WAIT to see him team up with Lord Dregg.

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    • Yoshimickster wrote:
      Anyone else find it interesting how Emperor Zanramon looks...well actually imposing? In the comics he was just some fat-cat, in the 03 show he was a whiney invader dude, in this-BAM-Darkseid. Adaptations are weird. Either way, I can't WAIT to see him team up with Lord Dregg.


      I noticed that as well. Zanramon actually looked so cool. He looks like some evil emperor this time around, with that cape and all.

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    • I updated the Traximus disambiguation page, where I removed Zeno's entry, but added a "See Also" bullet at the bottom of that page linking to Zeno as a similar character. I've also marked the redirect Traximus (2012 TV Series) for deletion. It's very possible Zeno may actually be based on Traximus, but Zeno is not Traximus. We need to edit assuming resemblance only to avoid speculation.

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    • That's fair, and as you said I wonder what possible stupid copyright bull-crap hindered them from calling this obviously Traximas Traximas character Traximas. I also hope with UT6 that his real name is Traximas and that Zeno is a gladiator name.

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    • Gilgameshkun wrote:
      I updated the Traximus disambiguation page, where I removed Zeno's entry, but added a "See Also" bullet at the bottom of that page linking to Zeno as a similar character. I've also marked the redirect Traximus (2012 TV Series) for deletion. It's very possible Zeno may actually be based on Traximus, but Zeno is not Traximus. We need to edit assuming resemblance only to avoid speculation.

      You're right, that's fair, I get it now. It's definitely speculation so it shouldn't be there...yet.

      Here's to Zeno's next appearance where he'll hopefully reveal his true name is Traximus.

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    • Yoshimickster wrote:
      That's fair, and as you said I wonder what possible stupid copyright bull-crap hindered them from calling this obviously Traximas Traximas character Traximas. I also hope with UT6 that his real name is Traximas and that Zeno is a gladiator name.

      YES! Hope! HOPE WITH ME BROTHER!

      By the way, nice work in the "Personality" section of Zeno's page. Couldn't have written it better myself :)

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    • UltimateTitan6 wrote:

      YES! Hope! HOPE WITH ME BROTHER!

      By the way, nice work in the "Personality" section of Zeno's page. Couldn't have written it better myself :)

      Thank you for noticing.

      And on the topic of this obviously Traximas character, I ALSO hope he meets a bunch of aliens in the colliseum that look similar to the Battle Nexus peeps and they make a flippin' BRIGADE to fight with the turtles!

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    • Huh, Zeno fanart has started appearing by artists I've already been watching on Twitter and in art communities. Here's one:

      https://twitter.com/Aokamidu/status/691565323548499968

      I don't care much at all for Zeno compared to Traximus, but damn that's some good fanart.

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    • The problem is, the Triceratons in the 2012 TV series don't have nearly the same attractiveness as they did in Mirage or in the 2003 TV series. Like I said, 2K12 aliens and mutants have been hit by some kind of ugly ray. Their faces are unsightly, and even their builds are unattractive, and Zeno is no exception. All the Triceratons look stiff; plastic; uncanny valley. Even that fanart I just linked, while it improves on Zeno's build, can't really improve on his face without going off-model, because it seems like 2K12 Triceratons were intentionally designed to be ugly. To be honest, I wouldn't want the Triceratons making appearances in Amazing Adventures' parallel universe looking like this. One of my friends has always been a huge Triceraton fanboy, and even he's repulsed by these versions of them.

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    • Gilgameshkun wrote:
      The problem is, the Triceratons in the 2012 TV series don't have nearly the same attractiveness as they did in Mirage or in the 2003 TV series. Like I said, 2K12 aliens and mutants have been hit by some kind of ugly ray. Their faces are unsightly, and even their builds are unattractive, and Zeno is no exception. All the Triceratons look stiff; plastic; uncanny valley. Even that fanart I just linked, while it improves on Zeno's build, can't really improve on his face without going off-model, because it seems like 2K12 Triceratons were intentionally designed to be ugly. To be honest, I wouldn't want the Triceratons making appearances in Amazing Adventures' parallel universe looking like this. One of my friends has always been a huge Triceraton fanboy, and even he's repulsed by these versions of them.

      I think you are looking way too much into this, Gilga. No offense. I know that they are not the prettiest looking things ever, but the Triceratons are based on dinosaurs, and I don't think I have seen many dinosaurs in media that are supposed to look pretty. I am not defending the look of the Tricerations, but if you ask me, aside from a few touches, I think the looks of the  Triceratons fits them well, since they are based on dinosaurs. Sure, they could have done it better some, but I like the detail the Triceratons have. You shouldn't worry too much about this, Gilga.

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    • The problem is, with precious few exceptions, regardless of artist, the Triceratons have a long history of being portrayed as ruggedly handsome brutes, almost to the point of fan service. Even with more clothes on, they have a commanding majestic presence. Here are some of the better examples:

      Even "plain"-looking Triceratons usually couldn't be called ugly.

      But in 2K12, they seem to be going out of their way to make sure Triceratons are unsightly, as if they partially imploded in on themselves and are made of plastic. They're off-model, uncanny valley, and overall just terribly designed. It feels like a betrayal of a proud TMNT aesthetic tradition.

      (And please don't say "no offense"—it always implicitly draws offense. Better to say "with all due respect.")

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    • Peter DiCicco who wrote this episode confirmed that Traximus and Zeno are two different characters. [1]

      Question was: Is there any reason to change "Traximus" to "Zeno"? Or are they two different characters?

      His answer: Different character! Also, we like that all our Triceraton have Z's in their names. Zog, Mozar, Zanmoran....

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    • Azokk, T'Zirk...

      Though "Trakzimus" might have worked. </silly>

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    • UltimateTitan6 wrote:

      Yoshimickster wrote:
      That's fair, and as you said I wonder what possible stupid copyright bull-crap hindered them from calling this obviously Traximas Traximas character Traximas. I also hope with UT6 that his real name is Traximas and that Zeno is a gladiator name.

      YES! Hope! HOPE WITH ME BROTHER!

      (sigh) And now... all hope is gone. Oh well, I really do like this new play on Traximus, though. They kept the two all around characters mostly the identical judging by this first appearance, except with realistic a more realistically detailed look, a immensely huger figure than that of other Triceratons, which I actually find quite interesting. Who knows, depending on how he is developed from here, I might like him just as much as Traximus if not better. Though I hate to compare them because so far they seem like one and the same, which is why I wish they would pass on the name to Zeno. (sigh)

      And yes, Trakzimus would have been hilarious.

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    • In fairness, all hope was gone before season 4 began. At least IDW TMNT #54 should be released any day now.

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    • Gilgameshkun wrote: In fairness, all hope was gone before season 4 began.

      How was all hope lost for Zeno to actually be Traximus gone before season 4. We only learned of Zeno's existence this past Sunday. 😏

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    • I was making a biting remark about the state of the series itself. :)

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    • Ah! I gotcha...



      jk I know, I was just messing with you. 😂 lol

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    • Gilgameshkun wrote:
      The problem is, with precious few exceptions, regardless of artist, the Triceratons have a long history of being portrayed as ruggedly handsome brutes, almost to the point of fan service. Even with more clothes on, they have a commanding majestic presence. Here are some of the better examples:

      Even "plain"-looking Triceratons usually couldn't be called ugly.

      But in 2K12, they seem to be going out of their way to make sure Triceratons are unsightly, as if they partially imploded in on themselves and are made of plastic. They're off-model, uncanny valley, and overall just terribly designed. It feels like a betrayal of a proud TMNT aesthetic tradition.

      (And please don't say "no offense"—it always implicitly draws offense. Better to say "with all due respect.")

      I debate the uncanny valley nature of them, that's like Robinsons animation for me(good movie, CRAP character models at times). And yeah it breaks tradition, but is there not merit in trying something new? Shel, April was consistently an adult woman hanging around 4 teenagers, now she's a teen and its less creepy! As dumb as Irma was, she was there so an adult woman's only friends weren't just four teenaged boys and her boyfriend....did she have female friends in the comic? Kinda failing the Bechdel test there. 

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    • I don't mind some variation. But you don't mess with Triceraton perfection. XD Every other version of the Triceratons haven't been unsightly like this. Hell, one of those Triceraton pictures up there is a prisoner who has been tortured and starved and reduced to squalor (not Azokk, but the other, unnamed Triceraton in the same prison), and he still looks amazing.

      Also, there have been younger Aprils before. In the Palladium RPG back in 1986, her profile listed her as 19 years old (only 4 years older than the turtles). And her IDW comics version is a young college student who worked for Baxter Stockman as an intern, and met Casey as a fellow college student to tutor him in academic classes so he wouldn't lose his college hockey scholarship. (I know the IDW turtles are actually much younger as mutant turtles, but they reincarnated from human teenagers who had died centuries before, and retained their personalities and maturity level from back then, so they're still teenagers in the social sense.) And this isn't a radical departure from April being 2 years older and Casey 3 years older than the turtles. The assumption of April being significantly older than the turtles didn't really germinate until the first cartoons and movies, where she could have easily been in her late 20s or early 30s.

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    • Ahh, my bad. I just now had a suspicion, and checked back to volume 4 issue 21, and that other prisoner is actually a Styracodon. But the same aesthetic rules of thumb apply to Styracis as they apply to Trikeys.

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    • Eh, that's true. STILL-she needs some real female friends, and no Mona Lisa doesn't count, she's an acquaintance at best. The closest she had in 2K12 was Irma, and as awesome as the Kraang Sub-Prime reveal was its kinda messed up that her best female friend was actually a dude all along. I hope she bonds with Karai next season, if she doesn't logically turn into Lady Shredder  I mean, point is the series needs more ladies.

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    • Well, yeah, the gender in the series is lopsided. But they keep utterly wasting the women characters they have. Karai's storylines keep treading water, and have started to feel recycled to the point where I tired of seeing her in yet another can't-come-home-yet plot. Renet was a one-dimensional abortion of a scripted character that they handled so horrendously bad that I wouldn't want to salvage this version of her. Mona Lisa is a crime against good writing. Chloe is only getting more development in Amazing Adventures, and she's so much younger than April anyway. Casey's sister has been mentioned but never seen, and for all we know she may be a figment of Casey's imagination. That leaves...just about nobody left alive who is remotely human or anthropomorphic who could be April's female peer.

      And of course you know they'll never adapt interesting women characters like Aka (IDW), Angel (IDW), Lilith (Mirage), Lucindra (Guest Era), Radical (Mirage), Renet (Mirage, and not totally lame), Robyn (Mirage), Seri (Mirage), Shadow (Mirage), Sloane (Mirage), Tang Amaya (Image) or Dr. Xeinos (Mirage/Image, though her Utrom gender was largely an informed attribute). I'd have mentioned Pimiko (Image), but I never really cared for her design, and 2K12 Karai has almost the same personality anyway. I also didn't mention Sara (Image), because she is such a trampy airhead who only treated Mikey like a friend with benefits. XD

      Also, just a heads up, this has already veered way off the thread's topic.

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    • Yoshimickster wrote: Eh, that's true. STILL-she needs some real female friends, and no Mona Lisa doesn't count, she's an acquaintance at best. The closest she had in 2K12 was Irma, and as awesome as the Kraang Sub-Prime reveal was its kinda messed up that her best female friend was actually a dude all along. I hope she bonds with Karai next season, if she doesn't logically turn into Lady Shredder I mean, point is the series needs more ladies.

      DUDE, seriously! Have you been reading my blogs...and my mind? That is like my biggest complaint about this show. I always say that this show suffers miserably from a lack of female characters, and they are not creating them fast enough. And yes, Irma was the closestthing April had to a female friend. I miss her soooooooo much. I loved her technical, sarcastic, "Lady Donatello" attitude. Plus, truth is, I'm a sucker for the cute nerdy girls. I still retain hope that there is a real Irma somewhere, and they find her. And I also hope April and Karai will become bffs.

      As for Karai becoming Lady Shredder. As incredibly epic as that would be, I think Utrom Shredder is more likely.

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    • Anyway, back to this.

      Traximus2016

      Where's the rugged good looks? Where's the well-defined abs, biceps, chins, lumbars, pecs? Where's the organic stance and posture? Where's the clear facial expressions? These Triceratons have a dull surprise at least as bad as Leatherhead (bless him), Rahzar or Rocksteady. I know this series has been able to do better than this—Dogpound, Fishface, Rockwell and Slash all had adequately expressionate faces.

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    • I dunno, I think they can be pretty expressive. Also I don't see the problem with them not being as studly as their predecessors, monsters rule! 

      And its not the female characters in the show that all ready exist that I have a problem with, just that April herself has no female friends, ALL her friends are guys. Maybe have her and Mona bond later this season, I don't know-SOMETHING.

      But yeah, why HASN'T Casey's family been shown at all? ARE they imaginary? 

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    • April doesn't need to bond with Mona. Mona needs to be erased from the multiverse. Perhaps after being dropped in a volcano first.

      To be honest, it was always more interesting when April bonded with Raph. The sister-like way they competed, and their few brief moments of gurltalk and camaraderie. And he and Karai had some of the best catfight moments. Raph may be a dude, but he was always best as a b*tch. (Sorry, I don't really know another word for this particular highly-nuanced sense of the word. It's not necessarily an insult in his case, because he's actually a lot more fun that way.)

      When they retooled Raph's personality over time, they made him incredibly dull and unsympathetic (in the sense of being hard to sympathize with). He's never had any real friendship chemistry with Casey, either, and most of their "buddy" scenes together feel forced and unnatural. (Casey is better as a foil for Donnie, but the two of them repeatedly fighting over April got really old really fast.) Mona Lisa is just the bottom of the Raph character derailment barrel.

      The interesting thing about April and Raph, is that April is herself also very boyish. So they can hang out as two of the guys, and they can effortlessly gurltalk and dish as two of the sisters. And Karai and Raph, with their very similar personalities, can have the kinds of arguments and putdowns between well-inflated egos that can make the walls curdle, and anyone listening in can bring popcorn. :)

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    • Yoshimickster wrote: I dunno, I think they can be pretty expressive. Also I don't see the problem with them not being as studly as their predecessors, monsters rule! 

      And its not the female characters in the show that all ready exist that I have a problem with, just that April herself has no female friends, ALL her friends are guys. Maybe have her and Mona bond later this season, I don't know-SOMETHING.

      But yeah, why HASN'T Casey's family been shown at all? ARE they imaginary? 

      Interesting. I actually was thinking about that recently when I watched an episode of the 03 series and I thought it would be a great twist if Casey's sister was Angel. We need another human friend who can actually fight and knows about the turtles and she would fit the bill perfectly. She could be everything Casey wasn't. She could also possibly be just 1 or two years younger than Casey and he just calls her little. She can actually fight! She could rise to be the new warrioress of the night: A female vigilante...

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    • Gilgameshkun wrote:
      April doesn't need to bond with Mona. Mona needs to be erased from the multiverse. Perhaps after being dropped in a volcano first.

      Geez, that's a little harsh isn't it? Yeah her relationship with Raph was a tad rushed, but she herself is pretty cool, she's kinda like a friendly Klingon. And I really don't see it as derailment for him, it makes sense for his character to be the first to get a real girl-friend seeing how he's always been the one to give that sort of advice to his brothers, even gruffly supporting Leo after Kari went snake. He's also not the kind of guy to wait 3 seasons to ask out a girl he likes, he goes for it, and in my opinion, it makes perfect sense for his character. But if it makes you feel better, one episode implies a love interest will become evil in the future, so Mona might be more than she seems.

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    • He didn't wait three seasons to ask her out—he waited less than 30 minutes. The problem is that her story represents a retooled Raph I can no longer stand—a very serious decline that was already happening over season 3, but now is just plain terrible. This Salamandrian might have been perfectly fine as a friend or sister type of character, but they forced the fast-acting romantic angle, destroying both characters' credibility in the process.

      I miss the old Raph who was indifferent to women, competed with April, catfought with Karai and angsted over Slash. He was interesting, and had some of the best, wittiest lines and some of the unexpectedly deepest moments. I wanted to get to know that guy better.

      This Raph was already becoming dull and unsympathetic, but this storyline he was forced into only confirmed my worst fears of what the writers were doing to him and to this show—turning it all into Fred Wolf syndrome hell. If I wanted to watch narmy trash, I'd just watch the 1987 TV series.

      Remember, every time someone wishes TMNT be more like the 1987 TV series, an angel commits seppuku in a meat grinder and their remains are rendered into a bio-petrochemical to be processed into plastic to be factory-molded into Playmates toys.

      (Just finished the massive task of setting apart 1987 TV series episode gallery pages. ...I still hate it. XD But it got me achievement points, and made the wiki a little tidier in the process. I'm surprised I got this much work done—I can usually only stand that series in the smallest of doses.)

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    • Gilgameshkun wrote:
      He didn't wait three seasons to ask her out—he waited less than 30 minutes. The problem is that her story represents a retooled Raph I can no longer stand—a very serious decline that was already happening over season 3, but now is just plain terrible. This Salamandrian might have been perfectly fine as a friend or sister type of character, but they forced the fast-acting romantic angle, destroying both characters' credibility in the process.

      I miss the old Raph who was indifferent to women, competed with April, catfought with Karai and angsted over Slash. He was interesting, and had some of the best, wittiest lines and some of the unexpectedly deepest moments. I wanted to get to know that guy better.

      This Raph was already becoming dull and unsympathetic, but this storyline he was forced into only confirmed my worst fears of what the writers were doing to him and to this show—turning it all into Fred Wolf syndrome hell. If I wanted to watch narmy trash, I'd just watch the 1987 TV series.

      Remember, every time someone wishes TMNT be more like the 1987 TV series, an angel commits seppuku in a meat grinder and their remains are rendered into a bio-petrochemical to be processed into plastic to be factory-molded into Playmates toys.

      (Just finished the massive task of setting apart 1987 TV series episode gallery pages. ...I still hate it. XD But it got me achievement points, and made the wiki a little tidier in the process. I'm surprised I got this much work done—I can usually only stand that series in the smallest of doses.)

      Once again I debate it, as I feel it applies to his character. And there's still depth to him, which they showed MARVELOUSLY in Riddle of the Ancient Aeons. Also, is it rushed? Is asking out a girl you like who likes you back, REALLY rushing it? Is waiting a million years just to hear him/her say yes or no really more realistic? No, if you do THAT they will find someone else and you'll have nothing. Maybe its a little rushed, but I prefer that than suffer through another willthey/won'tthey. 

      And once again, harsh. People like the 1987 show, and this series takes inspiration from ALL over the turtleverse. Honestly Mona Lisa has a LOT less to do with her namesake, and this season takes more credence to the 2003 show than the 87 one, as well as the Archie comics with Bellybomb. And it will NEVER have the problems character wise 87 had, in that show Raph had NO rage what so ever, while here we get to see it every once and a while. And I thought him channeling his anger in "Spirit Quest" was the reason why he doesn't go nuts as much, that's progression. Yes the show doesn't follow his personal arch as much, but neither do they with the others, and the reason for that is they are on mission, hell they never even got to grieve properly for Splinter, which Leo shows in "Riddles of the Ancient Aeons". 

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    • The problem is, season 2 wrote some fantastic plot coupons season 3 subsequently refused to cash. My friends and I were absolutely certain Raph was gay. And going from what we saw back then...he was. But the way he was retooled over season 3, was just such a crime against the rich character they'd developed in the first two seasons. Season 3 Raph became dull, then he became such a schmuck. He was fun when he was as a b*tch, but became contemptible when he became a schmuck. Season 4 Raph is a complete stranger now.

      And as a showrunner, you don't flirt so heavily with your gay peripheral audience and then unceremoniously do a complete 180 and ignore them. In this day and age, it's beyond insulting. It's worse to feel visible and then be made to feel invisible, than it is to have felt invisible all along. That's something not easily forgiven or forgotten. The current Raph has no credibility, and neither does his artificial romantic plot coupon.

      Anyway, we're getting way off-topic again. We've covered this ground before.

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    • Yeah we have, dropping it is best.

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    • I still think the 1987 TV series' influence on writing style has been a disease. With good writing style even the lowly Neutrinos can become really good, but with bad writing style even the Triceratons become a terrible waste. I know a lot of people like the 1987 TV series, but to me it only means that a lot of people have bad taste—Fred Wolf syndrome affects fan culture as well as shows.

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    • I still think the 1987 TV series' influence on writing style has been a disease. With good writing style even the lowly Neutrinos can become really good, but with bad writing style even the Triceratons become a terrible waste. I know a lot of people like the 1987 TV series, but to me it only means that a lot of people have bad taste—Fred Wolf syndrome affects fan culture as much as it affects shows.

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    • What do you think of the 2003 series since you hate the other two series.

      I would have to disagree with Raph being gay in season 1 and 2. He was a hothead with some serious skills. Just because you know what girls like and how they act or hitting people upside their head does not mean that you are automatically gay. He has a bromance with Casey and Slash. Spike was his pet that he felt like he could tell anything too since he thought he was the only person that understood him. But saying that because of this close bond is the reason why he is gay is saying that Mikey, Donnie, and Leo are gay because they all share this close bond together.

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    • Sonicisawesome2448 wrote: What do you think of the 2003 series since you hate the other two series.

      I would have to disagree with Raph being gay in season 1 and 2. He was a hothead with some serious skills. Just because you know what girls like and how they act or hitting people upside their head does not mean that you are automatically gay. He has a bromance with Casey and Slash. Spike was his pet that he felt like he could tell anything too since he thought he was the only person that understood him. But saying that because of this close bond is the reason why he is gay is saying that Mikey, Donnie, and Leo are gay because they all share this close bond together.

      Believe me, I've tried many times to get him to realize this (minus the bromance with Casey) using several valid examples. But he is clearly very EX-tremely committed to his beliefs and preferences, so I just dropped it.

      It's probably best to just leave him be.

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    • Alright I will if it will cause problems with everybody.

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    • The 2003 series was good, but never excited me as much because (a) I didn't watch it when it was new, and (b) In many ways it was a watered down version of Mirage and wasn't quite as impressive. I kept seeing all the little ways it was toned down for children.

      And as gay men, my friends and I noticed things we could relate most to. A lifetime of personal experiences, conventional wisdom and cold-reading develops an intuition often called "gaydar." And believe me, there's a huge difference between love of one's own brothers, and romantic attachment between men. But also, for most gay men, only a tiny part of being gay is directly relevant to sexuality, and there are other quirks at play too. Raph's other mannerisms all accumulated to strongly suggest that, like most gay men, he identifies as male but has a brain wired more like that of a woman, which affects aspects of his emotional responses, instinct, intuitions and overall personality, which are shared by most hetero women including very tomboyish women. (A separate psychological correlation has been observed between a majority of lesbians and hetero men.) The fact that Raph's personality was always a lot more like April or Karai than like Leo, Mikey or Donnie was not subtle at all. All in all, Raphael kept ringing all the right alarm bells in our brains. But these personality traits conspicuously started to fade away during season 3, and it was like, "what the hell, Nick?"

      Earlier, I had this discussion with Yoshimickster, who isn't gay, but agrees that the signals being perceived by gay audiences were really being seen by them—none of us imagined what we were seeing. But he illustrated how, on a TV show, it's a lot more complicated than that. TMNT has a whole production team of lots of writers, etc. When a show makes a decision to change something, they'll usually find a way to make it happen, no matter how many inconsistencies it may create.

      But since those early signals were real, it's all the more infuriating that the show ended up doing what it did. Gay audiences don't necessarily ask for smut or anything like that. But there are plenty of gay people with self-respect as a demographic, and they want to feel visible and relevant and respected in mainstream culture, no matter the age of the target audience. Gay people are already used to feeling invisible on TV when children are expected to be watching. But to be made to feel visible, and then invisible, is not easily excused. It's genuinely offensive, and sends exactly the wrong message to vulnerable gay youth. It's straightwashing.

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    • So, whatever your conclusions may be, please understand that we did not just imagine what we were seeing. It's rather insulting. The signals were real. But some of us may have been naive to think the showrunners would let it last.

      I like to try to maintain good working relations with regular users on this wiki. But when another regular user patronizes me and treats me like I'm delusional, it implies a lack of respect and poisons the entire atmosphere. Don't. The lasting consequences of what happened are not going to go away, so reconsider your tone and conduct accordingly.

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    • Huh, it occurs to me that, the more tempers rise, the more likely a discussion will veer off-topic.

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    • Well I never said that you were imagining things or even try to make it sound like that. I am sorry if I did offended you. Since I am straight, I pretty sure it would be harder for me to pick up if somebody is gay or not.

      With the 2003 series, the Mirage was the original so it would be very hard to top that. It was watered down a lot because it was made for kids like you said, but some episodes can be close to that of the Mirage comics and it was a lot darker than the other series.

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    • Thank you for your consideration. :) And yes, I respect 2K3, but I always preferred Mirage TMNT itself. Well, now Mirage and MNT Gaiden, and to a lesser extent IDW TMNT (which is still really awesome). Image TMNT would have been more interesting if it didn't graft its entire story wholesale into the Savage Dragon universe, trying to subordinate its universe to that one. But over all, I'm 35, have been a TMNT fan for decades, and have always gravitated more to the dark, dramatic and serious incarnations of TMNT. The 1987 TV series had some talent in making its first two episodes or so, but very quickly squandered that talent for the rest of the series. Archie TMNT was commendable for branching off the 1987 series universe and actually making it good, with a more mature "Mirage lite" setting.

      I'll probably leave more notes on your message wall, since we have a bad habit of cluttering threads with off-topic chatter. :)

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    • Am I crazy to want and hope that they add the ninja tribunal? I know maybe a bit different since the shredder isn't ACTUALLY a demon (officialy) and he'll probably never be apart from any part of his armor since the helmet was in the turtles' possession and he was all like Smeagle without his ring.

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    • Hey, Julian Bernardino, will you be doing some parodies like Thomas, TUGS, Dumbo, Sonic the Hedgehog, The Loud House, Godzilla, The Land Before Time, The Amazing World of Gumball, and An American Tail parody clips on YouTube and some full parody movies? Because you can use some programmes that are suitable for your parody movies to do, because that's something I've done for you here at http://parody.wikia.com/wiki/Julian_Bernardino's_List_of_Programmes_To_Use_For_The_Movies.

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    • A FANDOM user
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