Also, consider the mess this whole episode placement has turned into. There are THREE different orders when you look at production order, airdate, and DVD.
Production order goes as: Kavaxas arc, Halloween, Lone Rat and Cub, When Worlds Collide, Wanted: Bebop and Rocksteady, The Usagi Trilogy, Mutant Apocalypse
Airdate: Kavaxas, WWC, Usagi, LR&C, MA, Halloween, W: B&R
DVD: Kavaxas (the one thing they can all agree on), W: B&R, LR&C, MA, Halloween, WWC, Usagi
Production order still makes the most sense as far as I'm concerned.
P.S. When do you guys ever sleep? Just wondering...
This was a good batch of episodes, don't get me wrong; but it's not one of the overall best and it doesn't make great finale (as has been proposed around here) material. The pros, from minor to serious, include KMR slipping nicely into the shoes of the 1987 Shredder showing his range not only as two different Shredders but as a VA who can go from gravely serious to really funny almost effortlessly, Shinigami (who you could've cut from this series and lost nothing) and her Foot mercs finally displaying some competence, the overall interplay between the villains and heroes of these different dimensions, and the balance between the serious and (mostly) the non serious as the story moved along.
The major downside is that it largely felt incomplete. If they wanted to do more than be their own version of "Turtles Forever", they needed to get everyone involved in this. Where was Tiger Claw? Where was Xever? Why was even Rockwell missing? I couldn't stand the missing characters in "End Times" and I couldn't stand it here either. If they wanted to provide the closure to the Hamato vs. Foot rivalry that that episode failed to provide--and which would've really pumped up the proponents of this episode being the finale, then these batch of episodes didn't do the job. Plus, the doomsday scale in the final episode, in which the Technodrome starts to wreak havoc on the 2012 dimension doesn't reach the same scale as the great season finales of this series such as "The Invasion" and "Annihilation: Earth." Plus, there's also the fact that this season already tried to play with the doomsday scenario three times (the Kavaxas, WWC, and Halloween arcs) and they were all bad entries. So, from both a standard batch of episodes and a wishful finale standpoint, the episodes aren't as strong as they could've been. Like I said, don't get me wrong, these make a near 90 minute romp of fun but if there's one word I'd use to describe the "Wanted: Bebop and Rocksteady" arc, it'd be overrated.
Someone once stated that Nieli is hoping to write something detailing what led up to the apocalypse that conclusively ended the series. If he does so, he's going to have to do it as a series of graphic novels without the help from Nickelodeon or any of the companies associated with them. That or it would all have to be unofficial, probably posted on his website or something like that. I just believe that his time with that franchise, with those characters, is done.
I wish I knew. Ciro Nieli had this great idea in a spotlight video you can see on Youtube that would've had him breaking away from the Foot Clan at some point and trying to find his own way in life. It's a great idea because it would've given depth to a character who had an uneasy alliance with Shredder (like Karai) going into S4 despite his loyalty but they blew that from "Earth's Last Stand" onward. And that's also disappointing when you consider that Tiger Claw not only got worse as a character from that point on but it was a missed opportunity due to the fact that this franchise doesn't have a very good Rogue's Gallery.
Basically, when "End Times" came along, Tiger Claw should've either sacrificed himself in the midst of battle so that the heroes could win or he should've been killed (preferrably by Karai) afterwards.
Donatello does not find a way to turn Karai 100% human.
The episode you're thinking about where Karai is captured and used as bait is not "Karai's Vendetta" but "Vengeance is Mine". And you're right about Donnie not being the one to turn Karai back 100% as Baxter Stockman was able to at some point between "Meet Mondo Gecko" and "The Deadly Venom". Karai already being 'cured' before the "Deadly Venom" even started makes you feel like you're right in the middle of a story rather than the beginning of one and that was just one of many problems laden throughout that episode in particular.
The character designs (particularly Splinters) don't look so good even though I do like the fact that they're trying to make the turtles out of different kinds of turtles: Raph is a snapper, Don's a softshell, Leo's a red-eared slider, and Mikey's a box turtle. The animation also looks lazy which is a bad sign in terms of quality effort. I could be wrong but a lot of the great animated shows out there have good animation, there's no other way around it. I still have hope in Ant Ward and Andy Suriano, they've been behind the likes of the 2012 Turtles and Samurai Jack after all, but I don't have as much as I started out with.
"End Times" should've been the final episode of S4, and I don't even like it or the Kavaxas arc. And after all the evidence I've stated about MA (enough to do a Top 10 list), which I'll do one more time for fun: Nickelodeon sucking at scheduling since "Parasitica", production order, the fact that none of the other arcs are considered non-cannon (certainly the Kavaxas arc of course), Ciro Nieli's confirmation, no in-episode evidence to indicate non-canon or AU (unlike in past TMNT episodes dealing with stuff like it), the fact that the future isn't written in stone, the Chompy flashbacks straight out of S4, it was approved and aired--hopefully the editors here will get to work on that episode's page right away.
Anyway, back to the point I made with Wingnut's post earlier (I hope you're reading); with regards to canon vs. non-canon, it kind of does matter if something is officially considered canon or not because it opens a dangerous door, which the MA detractors are trying to do, that could allow people like them to sway, even bully studios and/or artists into making a project suddenly unofficial. As an entertainment fan, I always want what I want and if it's bad then screw the guys who made it, but where does something like this end? Where would the line between viewer and creator begin to disappear? To me, this is a lot like the Indoctrination Theory that came out when fans and players became so irate at the ending of the original Mass Effect trilogy that they tried to push their own ending on the studio. As much as I didn't like it myself, I still commend them for not caving. This is basically the same thing except the detractors are mostly using the word of some guy on Twitter (whose real name we don't even know) claiming to represent Nickelodeon to claim that the studio caved and push this on the rest of the fanbase. Again, where does it end? Are we suddenly going to say that the final season of "Samurai Jack" isn't canon b/c it never involved Jack fulfilling the Guardian's prophecy? Is Bioware/EA suddenly going to accept the Indoctrination Theory in the wake of ME:Andromeda's failure so they can have the "Mass Effect" series bringing in cash again? As far as I'm concerned, this whole controversy and 'movement' by quite a bit of the fanbase is a low for this franchise. So you'll have to excuse me Wingnut, and others, for not taking the word of some guy on Twitter who wants me to believe a fight with the Technodrome happened AFTER an apocalypse whose name I don't even know BTW, nor the advice of someone who admittedly learned "maturity" from the 'Harry Potter' books.
Wingnut II wrote:
Oh, geez....is this STILL going on?
Look, you can accept it as canon if you want. That's your deal. But that doesn't mean others have to accept it if they don't want to.
Canon vs non-canon aside, these episodes aren’t as bad as people think! That’s the point of this! While it’s nice to have a rational voice here for a change (at least for the most part) such as yourself Wingnut, this is a forum and forums are meant for conversations like that. Unfortunately Asfaloth is a bully who can’t seem to stand someone who doesn’t bow down and kiss his/her ass all the time and Easol isn’t far behind and I can’t stand those kinds of people—as I’m sure most wouldn’t either! That is the problem here!
Can't say I blame them because, you know, they're right!
If they were right, then they would be able to calmly offer an intelligent counter-argument, which they have utterly failed to do. Instead they have to resort to tantrums and insults. This suggests that they do not have an intelligent counter-argument, and they realize it deep down.
And I'm sorry for the overreaction last time Easol,
It's good that you're apologizing to Easol. You certainly owe them one. Yes, it was an overreaction, and it needs to stop.
but there is no way that this
</p><p><b>the fact that I've had to spend a lot of time here and elsewhere stating how it's not so bad is a real damper </b>
</p><p>((Plays the worlds tiniest violin)) Newsflash: People are going to dislike things that you like. Realizing this is a part of growing up. It's something I realized with Harry Potter. I was much happier once I learned this and matured :)
</p><p>I'm so glad this isn't canon. It would have been an insult to Leo's true character :)
Honestly, how many times do you have to keep telling yourself that? Must be a lot.
You certainly won't ever get an apology from me and the fact that you have to involve yourself between me and someone else here, take my words out of context on purpose, and get so bitchy because someone doesnt share your viewpoints about this arc just goes to show how pathetic and childish you are. The fact that you had to "learn how to be mature" from Harry Potter of all things proves it. Your parents must have been awful role models and I wouldn't be surprised.It must take a lot of work to keep yourself in that little fantasy world of yours. Come back to reality and the world of facts any time though.
I'd go with Leatherhead since he was the only character outside our main ones that didn't fold in terms of combat as the series went on. The series often cheated in terms of combat to get to plot points such as how Slash diminished in strength after his initial episode, Shinigami went from holding her own against the turtles and April in her debut episode but afterwards couldn't beat tissue paper, the list goes on. Since LH was the most consistent to me, that's why I'd go with him more than the others.
Not to critcize your opinion or anything but why do you like this arc? It's nothing but an hour-long turd of depression.
I believe I stated my reasons elsewhere on this page but I'll do them again b/c you're not like Easol or Asfaloth. Regarding what you just said, it's not as depressing an episode as a lot of people point it out to be mostly because it has just as much a campy tone as it does a postapocalyptic gloom and doom feel. Hair on turtles is one thing (the Transformers franchise is guilty of that a lot too which is one of the many reasons I can't take that franchise seriously either), but the campiness of the villains, the Mad Max tone mixed with the Mirage vibe, and that final Space Hereos TNG episode are several more things too. About that Mirage vibe though, I definitely think this is one of those kind of stories that Eastman and Laird would've written back in their days at that place (as if that final Mirage based picture at the end wasn't a final indicator that this episode may as well have been a love letter to them and what/where they started) which is another reason both to find something to enjoy in it as well as to not take it as seriously as others want me to; indeed, from the beginning this franchise has had to balance the serious and the non serious whether on paper or on screen and for the most part it was successful as I believe that was the case here. I also have a soft spot for characters who have lost everything and go on this search to either find redemption, salvation, and/or the things they've lost which is what the case was in the end, and that's also why I believe the search for Oasis was (or was supposed to be interpreted as) more a symbolic journey than a literal one to find the family they had lost which has been a major theme for not only this series but pretty much the franchise since its inception. I also don't mind the mystery behind the mutagen bomb since I believe the culprit and their motives behind it don't really matter when you've got the search for everyone and the theme of family as the main focus and driving force of the story, and I don't mind the time jump either since the leap forward in years allowed for a reset that gave the story slight permission to refocus on a whole new story that didn't have room for those not directly involved with it. The animation was also really good, I don't think the character designs were as bad as everyone says they are (I can make Mikey an exception but I can't let something as trivial as character designs cloud my judgement of the episode itself), and Leo's turn as a villain was actually the most interesting part of the story to me since he mirrored his worst enemy all the way down to his motivation: the loss of the person he loved and the disentegration of his relationship with the only family he had ever known. The mutagen bomb may have affected Leo some but I believe the loss of those he cared for drove him into being the way Saki ended up and it took the reunion of those he cared for to bring him back to himself. Plus, Robo Donnie was awesome! I believe the stuff I mentioned here is more than enough to compensate for any shortcomings the script has.
Now would I put it in my top 10? No. While I like this arc on its own terms (save for the raunchy humor in the middle entry for sure), I don't think they necessarily had to go this route in the end either although not to the egrigious extent that most of the other fans think so. And from the overall fan reactions to the finale, I don't think the creators took them into account when they made this (here's looking at Mass Effect), which is something you have to do because to me, the finale IS everything! It may seem unfair but it's a lot like the Super Bowl game in the NFL, that being it's the only one that matters--like they say, you have to save your best for last. "Lost" and "Dexter" never recovered their reputations after their polarizing if not really bad finales, it's just the way the cookie crumbles. Like Steve Forbes said, "It's better to arrive at a conclusion than to justify it" and the fact that I've had to spend a lot of time here and elsewhere stating how it's not so bad is a real damper (as well as the fact that I'm still waiting for Ciro to address this whole controversy). Now that's just nitpicking as compared to my second reason and it's that this arc proved what made the later seasons, most of all this one, so disappointing in the fact that it seemed the creators took more effort into referencing stuff (even though even the issues of TMNT old are guilty of that too) and bringing in other characters from this franchise (in this case the Scale Tale clan) than fulfilling established storylines and wrapping up loose ends. Now they cheated by blowing up their loose ends as one person put it to me, so while I can't really say they didn't wrap up loose ends I still don't have to entirely like that they did it in that fashion. That's why I can't overall stand S5 save for the Usagi trilogy for certain; since the Kavaxas arc, the Halloween arc, and the second half of the WWC arc were truly awful! It was their last chance and aside from giving the Newtralizer a final fate, it seemed they didn't even bother. Still, like I said, the first one is more of a nit than my second reason is. So what I'm saying is that while MA isn't top 10 for me, it's certainly Best of the Rest (probably #12 or #13 out of 124 total episodes). Thanks for your interest Fishface and thanks for reading.
It most certainly is overrated....
...Clearly you haven't spent much time at the Technodrome forums, where they have been hysterically attempting to defend the arc and throw temper tantrums when people dare to even breathe the words "AU" or "non-canon". ...
...Nobody was able to actually successfully refute any of my points, now that I think about it.
1) Even though it's still hard to find much love for the arc, I'm still glad you feel that way. And the fact that it is underrated is exactly why I brought the Final Chapters DVD instead of just buying the Usagi episodes on my Roku.
2) Can't say I blame them because, you know, they're right!
3) Pffft! Keep telling yourself that.
And I'm sorry for the overreaction last time Easol, but there is no way that this arc is non-cannon! It's not! Production order, setting, Nick's approval and airing of it, the main man in charge sticking to his guns, and no in-episode evidence that it is an AU (and possibly the idea/fact that the future isn't written in stone) are, or should be, enough to determine its canonocity--and certainly not some guy pretending to be the voice for all of Nickelodeon via social networking! I don't know how many more ways I can put it! And I'll tell you something else; Triggerman and the rest of the mods/editors here need to either acknowledge that it's canon on the pages here involving the arc, or at least have it written on said pages that it's debatable thanks to the controversy that we the fans have built! There's no other way around it!
While I agree with Easol that it is about time this happened, I doubt that they'll bring back Yuki to voice Usagi let alone any of the others from the episodes we just saw last year. At least Stan Sakai is on board but that's all I can really say.
And the personality changes in Leo and Raph. I'm certainly not pleased with it. I love Leo being the leader and the brooding one and love the hot headed Raph.
It amazes me how everyone has already forgotten that Raph was considered the leader of the group in the 1990 movie. And it took a bit of time in the 2012 series for Leo (and to an extent Raph) to fully realize the enormity of the role he asked for.
I also agree with Fishface that it was time for it to end too. The series was not getting better season by season and that's why I'm content (at least for the most part) that it's finally over. Well, that and the ever growing ridiculous hiatuses they put us through...although I don't see why the new series wouldn't put us through the same thing now...
As for the series itself, I too have become worried by the designs and the animation itself, especially Splinter (boy does he look bad!) whom I originally said should've proved very interesting since Eric Bauza would be taking him on after a slew of villains from the 2012 series. I know you can't judge a book by its cover but I have seen too many times where the animation and/or designs don't look good, it's indicative of the effort put into the overall quality of the series. I stilll have hope in Ant Ward and Andy Suriano but definitely not as much as I have before.
You lied in all four paragraphs Easol1 and the fact that you're allowed to edit material here is a disgrace to this site!
That's not Nickelodeon who said that! That's just some Twitter poser claiming to be the official voice of Nick! That guy can kiss my ass for all I care! Nickelodeon got nothing right except to air every single Tale except for the Kavaxas arc (which should've instead been the final 4 episodes of S4 instead) out of freakin' order! I'll tell you what, if Nickelodeon releases an official company statement and/or brings all the artists back to include a final scene in the MA arc to show that it was all an AU, then I'll believe it. Until then, forget it!
And don't tell anyone that SJ is irrelevant! It's VERY relevant! First consider the fact that it's one of the greatest action cartoons ever made and it was made by one of the best animators ever. Then look at the S3 episode involving the Guardian supposedly hinting at Jack's future at the end. Then skip ahead to before the final season even began with every fan expecting it to happen. Then it doesn't happen. The same thing happened with Renet's claims.
And how in the world is she a "pivotal" character?! Because the turtles had to make sure a future that already happened and that was starting to actually fade away ended up occuring by themselves? Because they then contradicted the future being written in stone by rewriting history in "Earth's Last Stand" without her around again? Because she came back for a lame Halloween story that never should've been told? Because the future she proposed didn't happen? Oh she was so pivotal all right! XD
Their plan was not thwarted b/c anyone with a brain can tell it's the series finale despite the airdates! The time and setting, the lack of AU evidence or devices, etc. etc. all that stuff! The only reason it aired out of order is b/c Nick has sucked since scheduling since "Parasitica". Brandon Auman said that Nick discourages serialized stories and prefers standalones they can play out of order so it's no wonder they couldn't handle all those multiparters in a row.
And forget about Renet, would you already?! The future is NOT written in stone; "Earth's Last Stand" (even the fact that Casey and April could disappear from time AT ALL as "Tale of the Yokai" shows is a good example too), the final season of "Samurai Jack", etc. help to prove it and Renet is not some authority figure or word of law/God when it comes to time (she's basically a kid afterall for crying out loud!) Move on.
It's not overrated. I've been to as many sites as I can find that have discussed this story and while I, overall, have been able to find about a handful of people who share at least some views similar to mine; most of the people I've seen are as negative as can be, overly sentimental (and I mean WAY overly sentimental), very confused, or a mix of these three things. Sure the tide has turned some on the Technodrome forums, partially b/c I think some members have left while the franchise takes a hiatus from TV, but if you look around on a lot of other sites it's safe to say that my views are not in the majority and thus, I've got a lot of work ahead of me.
...It's strange how desperate fans are to force others to accept it as "canon". Which is precisely why I have chosen to speak up about it. People have every right to treat it as non-canon and/or an alternate reality/timeline, whether certain fans like it or not :)
And as someone who doesn't buy these AU/non-canon claims (Nickelodeon's no different than a big fat liar as far as I'm concerned) yet still sees the positives inherent in this underrated story, I have just as much right to rebuff those claims and speak up about the flaws on the other side of the argument as well as to express my opinions as far as the overall quality of the episode goes. So I guess I'll be seeing you later.
I agree that, like "Same As It Never Was", this could be only a possible future. The secret to preventing the apocolypse must lie in one of Raph's lost memories, likely something that, at the time, seemed insignificant.
However, as Easol1 said, The showrunners did originally intend this to be the true ending, despite the major continuity issues that prevent it from fitting into the canon timeline and for very dubious reasons. Thankfully, Nick overruled them :)
They should've stood by their artists. They had guts to air this arc as well as some others like "Annihilation: Earth", the "Requiem" and "Owari" episodes, etc. but not standing by your artists in the press isn't something that a good entertainment company does. Show some guts Nick! There still isn't enough to sell us on the idea that this isn't the series finale or if it's non-cannon (ex. the setting and plot of the arc, the fact that Nickelodeon has sucked at scheduling since "Parasitica"--everyone even caught that WWC happened after the Halloween arc despite the fact it aired first, it's the last episode in production order, the fact that none of the other arcs are considered non-cannon--the Kavaxas arc being the most notable, Ciro Nieli's rebuffs--and if Gargoyles showrunner Greg Weisman can claim what's canon and not then certainly Ciro can, the fact that there's no evidence within the episode to indicate that it was an AU--unlike SAINW and other episodes that let you know at some point that it was, the fact that it aired, the Chompy flashbacks straight out of S4, etc.) and if that was either the intent of Nickelodeon or the creators, they didn't do a very good job at all.