Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-11469381-20150831022901/@comment-16581186-20151014220816

Sugilita wrote: UltimateTitan6 wrote:

Gilgameshkun wrote: XD Well, considering how little depth 2K12 Casey has compared to some other versions, I'd be inclined to agree. :) Although Mirage Casey is depressed and alcoholic enough that he might have a deeply regrettable one-night-stand with some stranger named Irma&mdash;who knows? *promptly passes around the brain bleach*

Anyway, I need to keep reminding myself that I've been following TMNT for decades, and a lot of people here have only been following it for a few years (and indeed have not been alive for decades), so lots of people may not be as familiar with the easter eggs, old pop culture references and memes some of us have long memories of. It's not really so irritating when someone doesn't understand Bebop and Rocksteady's associated memes and why we discuss them and point them out when we see them repeat. Someone can just say, "I don't understand what you mean by that," and they can get an explanation. What's irritating is when someone appears to feel threatened by the implication, and feels a need to assertively dispute it as if it's an unwelcome topic they don't want to hear again.

Bebop and Rocksteady aren't just characters that were recently introduced to a widely-watched Nickelodeon show. They are familiar character templates which have been around for decades. And past portrayals of them have made enough of an impression in our cultural memory that we start expecting some of the same things even from new versions of them. What made this scene in Annihilation Earth so noteworthy and discussion-worthy is that this seems to be the first real moment where Bebop and Rocksteady's affection appears mutual. And in so doing, it reminds us of their now-decades-old love meme. If Zeck and Steranko were the very first versions of Bebop and Rocksteady we'd ever seen, then their last scene might not have had the memetic impact it had. But since they're actually new versions of old familiar character templates, seeing this moment in them gave some of us a nostalgic geek-out moment. It was very, very meta.

It's frustrating, because I'm discussing this scene in the context of all the different versions of Bebop and Rocksteady. And it's completely missing the point to discuss it exclusively in the context of how Zeck and Steranko have developed on this show since 2014. That's because Bebop and Rocksteady aren't new characters&mdash;these are just new versions of them. They are older templates, with characteristics we have come to expect or anticipate from them in any version, regardless the differences.

And, in my assessment, these versions made it even more likely this scene would happen, because a savvy reference-conscious viewer knew early on that Zeck in particular was not going to be straight as an arrow (at least, not completely), and it was quickly evident he had a special (albeit cautious) affection for Steranko, despite how abusively Steranko treats him. (Anyone remember "Baby Ivan", that casual pet name Zeck had for Steranko? XD) Steranko was very different from previous versions of Rocksteady, making him a more unpredictable quality. But this series did a good job showing Zeck and Steranko becoming more of a duo joined at the hip. It was meaningful that Steranko was the one who initiated the affectionate scene, because it was only then that we could appreciate that they shared a mutual affection. If it had been only Zeck initiating the scene, we'd still be wondering if Steranko did little more than tolerate Zeck.

So does this mean Steranko is in love with Zeck? If we look at just the two of them as Zeck and Steranko, it can be hard to tell. But if we see them as the familiar Bebop and Rocksteady, then the likelihood skyrockets. Since the idea of Bebop and Rocksteady being in love is nothing new, the creators had to be aware that older viewers might be conscious of this. And that is precisely what made us geek out over Steranko's four short words, "Hold me close, comrade." Steranko may have constantly yelled at, chewed out and threatened violence against Zeck, but when it comes down to it, Steranko not only accepted Zeck's, but liked him too. And you know what they say about two people who bicker a lot: "They're like an old married couple." :) Ok, if you're referring to me on that second point of your statement, here's what I have to say. Firstly, CALM DOWN! I'm not "threatened" by anything on the internet (unless they're death threats. Then I get scared). It's a freakin' TV show/comic book for crying out loud. And if I didn't want to hear this topic, I wouldn't be discussing it with you, sooo...yeah. Now without further ado, let's get into this response. I didn't know you were referring to Bebop and Rocksteady in all media and not just the 2012 franchise, as I haven't been very active on this discussion page and only caught your last comment about them in the 2012 show before I left mine. So for what it's worth, sorry if I sounded ignorant to the conversation.

But even still, I made a very valid point. It's basically the same point that you commonly make about Raph and Slash in 2012, just on a different spectrum. As we all should know, Raphael in virtually every version is notorious for being this tough, badass, and short-tempered character who is also arguably the "Manliest" of his brothers. Plus the fact that he had a girlfriend (Ninjara) in the Archie comics, as well as minor romantic moments with Mona Lisa in the 1987 cartoon. And because he is an "older template, with characteristics we have come to expect or anticipate from him in any version, regardless the differences," I think it's just given fact that most fans wouldn't expect a character like Raph to be gay in any version. But despite all of this history and evidence of him being straight in previous versions, you are convinced that the writers implemented that aspect into the character in this new version. I mean, when you heard that Mona Lisa is going to be in this upcoming season and Raph is "going to have a relationship with her," It didn't seem to give you any "geek out" moments. As I recall, you said "giving him a girlfriend now? It seems out of character. It feels manufactured, like a retool or retcon. It just wouldn't be Raph. He's like a new and different character altogether, rather than the one I got to know over the first two seasons."

Well, I feel the same way about Bebop and Rocksteady's 2012 incarnations, just on the opposite spectrum. Two characters who have a history of being speculated as gay in past versions are portrayed as straight in 2012's version (on Bebop's part at least). But apparently, it's "irritating" or "frustrating" to talk about that (even though you make the same point about Raph as a gay character in 2012). So I think it's obvious who feels threatened now. To clarify though, I'm not a straightsplainer (if that's the right word for it) and I'm not bashing your preferences or opinions. What I was trying to say in my last comment is that the fact Zeck and Sterenko shared that tender moment in Annihilation Earth only shows a more intense version of what we've seen from them already in the 2012 series. And for good reason. This was the END OF THE WORLD!!! In the 2012 series, they are the James Carter and Inspector Li of TMNT. Raph also was married to Mezcaal and in the 2003 series it was hinted that he had a crush on Joi Reynard.

And i'm sure the Mirage Raph liked Lucindra. Yes! Thank you for adding to my point. I actually didn't even know that and 2003 is actually when I really became a hardcore fan of TMNT. Which episodes were those, anyway?